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I want to thank everyone for the ovwhelming support for our cause, you guys mean a lot.
I have been tthinking a lot lately and thing I have a social solution to this problem. It is something I am going to start doing a writeup on ttoday. I think it will not just thelp QOTO but in general address the unwantant fracturing of the fediverse.
I will share the dettails once my writeup is complete but if anyone is intterested in hearing more or potentially help being a part of it, please reply here or reach out to me in DM.
@freemo Unwanted? By whom? You, qoto.org, someone else? There's certainly no consensus to whether the formation of factions is unwanted.
@dusnm Unwanted by many.. by my judgement the majority in fact, at least based on how im seeing the conversation go.
@freemo The software (at least Mastodon) is specifically designed to make defederation one of the most useful options in content moderation. How else would we deal with malicious actors? This will inevitably lead to formation of factions as it indeed does. I'd argue it's part of our nature as people, a natural extension of our right for self-determination. To be clear, I have no qualms with people who decide not to use this, it's as much a right to not use it as it is to do.
I tend to agree... Is there really a problem?
If "most think that defederation is not wanted", doesn't that mean that most are not defederated by definition?
And those who wants to be outside that larger cluster have all their rights to do so...
Maybe I am missing something important here.
no because it doesnt create clean little islands, sadly.. it creates fractured threads where everyone is talking and you cant see half the messages, and the messages you cant see are different than what someone else can see. It drives people to ultimately smaller and smaller islands.
The problem lies int he viral nature of the defederating... the current peer pressure is such that every server demands every other server block the same people they do, meanwhile each server has a different block list. When this plays out to completion everyone is forced into small niche islands and there is no fediverse, if you try to participate in a larger fediverse you are kicked out of even your small island, so no fediverse can exist by that point... it is headed there fast.
To me it sounds like you are making the assumption that most admins want go down this path, but you started with what most of us (admins) don't want. I fail to see how both can be true at the same time.
Do you mean that admins who are anti-defederation will fold to user pressure? Rather than trust the "don't want those users anyway" attitude?
@freemo @niclas I don’t believe in weakness. I think everyone is fighting their own battle. You mentioned philosophy. Socrates would have had something to say along the lines of what you said. He thought the new generations were spoiled and could never inherit the world. I think that’s fallacious for the simple reason history proved it wrong. Every generation thinks they got it all figured out.
@freemo@qoto.org @niclas@angrytoday.com @dusnm@fosstodon.org agreed, defederation may harm the Fediverse, already lacking a full mesh
Ah! So the "I was just following orders, to avoid being punished."-mentality.
Yeah, you might be right. But it also means that "most admins are ok with defederation" and by taking that stance, they assign themselves into a life in ever smaller islands (as you said).
Self-inflicted, or suicide, by "playing it safe".
Most admins are ok with defederation from instances who deserve it in their mind. Most admins are reasonable in who they think deserves it (when not under peer pressure). Most admins seem to block instances with rampant harassment. While we dont defederate here I am not advocating everyone needs to be anti-defederation, just be reasonable and informed about it.
@freemo I'm not specifically disagreeing with you. I'm thinking about the problem as well and deciding whether I think it's a problem.
You said the fracturing of the fediverse is unwanted. Suppose it is. The main way fracturing happens is through the use of defederation. My question is not how would we address this, it's whether we need to address it.