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Just a reminder, #Israel (along witht he hamas) both have a well recorded history of using children as human shields during military conflicts, targeting civilian populations recklessly, enacting punishment intentionally on civilians, and generally engaging in terrorism.
These arent speculation, they have been called out many many times by Amnesty International, the UN and many other international bodies...
If you want to be appaled at terrorism in Israel you cant do so objectively if you forgive either side.
How are actual recorded facts, investigated and proven by third party agents.. "What about ism"... they are actual confirmed things that happened, thats the exact opposite of what aboutism.
@freemo I’m not saying that facts are whataboutism 😂 I’m saying that it’s whataboutism for the primary response to actions of terror from #Hamas to be “well what about #Israel”
I have yet to see anyone who has argued that #Israel also performs acts of terror spend more time talking about what #Hamas has done than what #Israel has done. 🤷🏾♂️
I’m not saying that you’re a sympathizer of #Hamas though, don’t get me wrong. I think this is a touchy and emotional subject for everyone, and I’ll admit it, myself included.
I’m not saying that facts are whataboutism 😂 I’m saying that it’s whataboutism for the primary response to actions of terror from #Hamas to be “well what about #Israel”
Where did I say that? I mentioned nothing about hamas acting in response to israels terrorism, or vice versa.
I have yet to see anyone who has argued that #Israel also performs acts of terror spend more time talking about what #Hamas has done than what #Israel has done. 🤷🏾♂️
My post just explained that both israel and hamas has done terrorism. Nothing about my post focused on one side more than the other… So this post itself is a counter example to the very thing your saying people dont do.
I’m not saying that you’re a sympathizer of #Hamas though, don’t get me wrong. I think this is a touchy and emotional subject for everyone, and I’ll admit it, myself included.
Dont worry I know you argue in good faith and respecfully even when we disagree strongly. You are good.
By the way I do agree its emotional for many. But keep in mind as a person who has spent some time living and working there just recent it is likely a bit more personal for me than your average person.
@freemo Hmm…maybe I didn’t interpret your post correctly, it seemed to me when I read it that you were trying to redirect criticism of #Hamas towards #Israel. I don’t think I’ve seen you say much in the way of condemning #Hamas but to be fair I also don’t think that I’ve seen many of your original posts, it’s mostly just been us arguing under my own posts for the past day or so 😅
Perhaps I have had too much internet for the day…between seeing reports of the atrocities of #Hamas today and more legit posts of apologists genuinely justifying the actions of #Hamas, I’ve been upset for most of the day.
Dont worry I know you argue in good faith and respecfully even when we disagree strongly. You are good.
No worries, just wanted to clarify because I’ve seen many right wing responses to people either justifying or downplaying #Hamas and #Palestine’s role in the conflicts calling them “terrorist apologists” and I wanted to make it clear that that’s not what I’m doing here, there is plenty of hardship to go around for the Arabs in #Palestine too so it makes sense to feel for them and try to speak out on their behalf.
@realcaseyrollins My comment said:
> Just a reminder, #Israel (along witht he hamas)
Everything in my statement concermned Israel equally along side the Hamas. How is that a redirect?
If this were a thread about how evil the hamas are, and I responded with that it could be a valid argument. But as a standalone statement that doesnt track.
> I don’t think I’ve seen you say much in the way of condemning #Hamas but to be fair I also don’t think that I’ve seen many of your original posts, it’s mostly just been us arguing under my own posts for the past day or so 😅
Generally with me you will find that whoever the bad guy is, I try to understand the opposite perspective... So when Trump was president and being violently (literally) attacked I was critical of that and would more often point out this over reaction... Similarly even now ill be critical of that despite not really liking Trump and being biased against him.. but that makes me want to be more critical and consider if im being fair, not less.
Same here.. normally the israelis are the ones seen as the bad guy (at least around here), and so i might defend that to some extant.. but now that the hamas are the ones everyone hates im more likely to be critical of the Israelis...
The pattern your seeing might have a bit to do witht he fact that I favor Palestinians, but it probably has more to do the with the fact that I like to make sure people consider both sides and dont become polarized to whatever is the target of the day.
> I saw it as an attempt to redirect the anger many are targeting towards #Hamas and have them channel it, at least to some extent, towards #Israel too.
That is part of it too.. the fact that Israel is actively doing the same sort of terrorism day after day and people are largely silent. So there is a perceived bias that needs correcting where people arent seeing that both sides are largely acting the ame and have been consistently for 100 years.
This is just a different way of saying what I said, that when one person or group is overwhelmingly targeted I find it more important to point out the otherside to ensure people are less biased fromt he one-sideism and polarization that is the norm int he current climate.
@freemo @realcaseyrollins Agreed. It's not about shifting blame from one side to the other, but about understanding that both sides are doing truly terrible things that perpetuate the endless cycle of violence between them. Anyone condemning one side and standing with the other is, therefore, inherently hypocritical.
Exactly... we have a tendency to one-side **everything**... this is one case where that would be deadly for many innocent people.
@freemo @LouisIngenthron Hmm. I have been saying that I stand with #Israel and while I think I’ll still say that moving forward, the state has a LOT to account for.
But I think that #Hamas is worse; I think once they are defeated, it would be the time for the reckoning of various wrongs that #Israel has committed. At the very least, the #USA should pull all support for them once the war is over, IMHO. Or at least place heavy conditions on aid and support, that would force the government to shape up.
@realcaseyrollins @freemo I mean, according to The Guardian, Israel is currently shelling schools and hospitals and civilian border crossings. Reckoning for wrongs would be one thing if those wrongs weren't still being actively committed.
@freemo @LouisIngenthron I could be wrong, but #Hamas generally operates out of such buildings to use the Palestinian citizens as human shields, and #Israel is currently targeting #Hamas, not civilians, in their strikes.
But I suspect we’re treading familiar ground here.
@realcaseyrollins @freemo As I understand it, you could switch "Israel" and "Hamas" and your post would still be 100% true... 🤷♂️
@LouisIngenthron @freemo #Israel launches rockets out of hospitals and builds tunnels under schools? 🤔 That’s news to me.
I don’t think they were hiding behind those festivalgoers though.
The hamas would love to build proper military structures and work out of that... you really think israel will let them? So instead they work out of their home as an underground... using that and trying to make it sound like the hamas are using them as human shields isnt accurate... i mean the hamas **do** sometimes use human shields, and thats not right.. but depicting them working as an underground in doing so isnt fair at all.. especially when israli IDF is literally using children as human shields, as in, put them in from of them when someone is about to shoot them.
@freemo useful post thank you. I am moving away from thinking in terms of "either side" because I have learned there are more than two. some of the groups are israeli civilians, israeli government payrolled terrorists, palestinian civilians, and the hamas terrorist group. I am not clear yet on what other groups there are in it. what a heartbreaking, infuriating situation.
@falcennial Very good way to think of it. Generally the civilians of both sides, while of course highly biased against the other, does not condone the atrocities carried out in their name. Sometimes they deny they happen, quite often, and thats not right. But regardless of if they dont believe it is happening, or if they dont want it to happen.. either way its hard to blame the citizens or treat either group as one monolithic thing.
@freemo @falcennial What I'm trying to figure out is the Hamas strategy here. This was an over the top provocation obviously intended to make Israel commit its entire military to an on the ground offensive in Gaza. Hostage taking too, you cannot rescue hostages with a bomber. Otherwise Israel might just level Gaza.
This feels like the moment in a movie where the bad guy, acting wildly overconfident for his known capabilities, reveals his secret weapon. What is their plan? Stalingrad style?
Yea I have been thinking about that alot too... obviously we can only speculate, and speculation can lead into all levels of conspiracy theory, or can stick to more level headed speculation.. but either way it would be speculation.
The more level headed explanation is that since Israel doesnt usually care about mass-murdering civilians to kill a few terrorists they probably think they can put a stop to that by having israel citizens in palestine. thinking that might cause them to second guess any attack that would kill civilians since they might actually care about their own (when they clearly dont care about palestinians).
A more conspiracy theory speculation would be that other foreign powers are pulling the strings... I can think of a few motivations there... Israel might pull some CIA shit (or get our CIA to do it) so israel can justify finally taking **all** the land for themselves without public fallout. Or it could be a russian power (probably through Iran) pulling the strings so they can divert resources away from Ukraine and towards Israel.
@freemo @falcennial I've already seen the Netanyahu conspiracy "knew it was coming" claim.
Maybe they think they can win on their own turf with the experience of Afghanistan.
Two new styles of warfare of the 20th century were Blitzkrieg and modern Jihad. Nobody has ever combined the two. Yet.
More speculative, how about a conventional invasion of Israel from a different direction once they are fully committed in Gaza? Or maybe Iran shows up with something they've been working on for a while?
All possible... very hard to know for sure... I can think of a 100 different explanations and any of them might be legit honestly.
@freemo @falcennial https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12617253/seal-team-six-delta-force-israel-hostages.html Now this is the stupidest thing I've seen all day. Sending in the special forces to rescue hostages, sure. Reporting it to the media? Whoever did that ought to be impeached and/or prosecuted. They just painted a big target on those people.
@freemo This is known as whataboutism.