@kreyren @fsf
sorry, messed up the link. https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/l5-schematic/-/raw/master/librem5_mainboard_schematic.pdf?inline=false

@dgr @fsf Last time i checked the schematics are released under a restrictive license so if you are developing OSHW hardware like me then you can't really look at them e.g. i have RockPro64 that broke few weeks after i got it under minimal use (i basically just tested NixOS on it for collectively ~20min runtime) and i have to pay a local repairer instead of using schematics to fix it myself.

And even that schematics will tell you where to put a jumper wire so that you can have your very own spaghetti monster inside the system which is not really sustainable it's more like hotfixing to see if the configuration works to then make proper PCB, bcs it won't allow you to change the pcb itself e.g. using the OLIMEX's teres-1 i can just open KiCAD i currently work on adding:
* RFID reader
* Fingerprint sensor
* changing the case to be 3D printable and rugged
* hot-swappable batteries
* changing the PCB material from FR4 to aluminium so that i can later manufacture them myself in investment silver base
* Eventually use the IMX8QM-TUKHLA instead of A64 so that it can have an NVME drive and performance better than pinebook pro
* etc..

when company gives you these files it also enables you to go further e.g. i am using the KICAD files from TERES-1 and OLinuXino A64 to re-engineer the electronics of Xiaomi Scooter to run nongnu guix and develop drones.

Not to mention that you can actually verify how the PCBs are wired e.g. librem is shipping the systems with hardware vulnerabilities (SPECTRE + meltdown) and backdoors (proprietary router running proprietary firmware with evident wired access to kernel's ring-0).

@kreyren @fsf

License doesn't look to bad. I maybe now understand your frustration. "Respects Your Freedom" is for users like me and not for Open-Source Hardware creators like you. I'm fine with the FSF certifying hardware for me that isn't "as a service" and I can have a realistic shot at fixing it with a jumper wire. This and printing a case is about the extend of my capabilities.I guess, you're not the audience and your needs aren't a concern because of the skill gap - you're OP dude ;)

@dgr @fsf It's not just "Open-Source Hardware Creators like me" ultimately it's the consumer who suffers with worse design that can't be customized and are overpriced.. It's the same argument against using proprietary software just on hardware.

@dgr @fsf The skill gap is not really a thing.. hardware development is easier to learn than learning python as kicad makes that really easy.. consider investing few hours into it

@kreyren @fsf you lost me, software is way easier then hardware. I'm a developer by trade and dabbled a bit in hardware with building keyboards and a 3d printer. Software is cheep, fast and a lot less dangerous. I can change software in minutes but if I tinker with hardware, it's hours!

@dgr @fsf I am software developer for almost 15 years now and i do hardware for almost 4 it's significantly easier.. it's like graphical programming language compared to enso you just read the "backtrace" more as the "linting" for the PCB tells you where you've made mistakes..

I would compare that to regex from a junion dev perspective as it looks scary and complicated but when you invest few min learning it you will realize that it's stupidly simple..

Like you basically just open schematics and connect lines based off of documentation and then use the schematics to then make the layers which is like making images in inkscape just computer guided to help you make them..

@dgr @fsf For a practical example lets use the Allwinner A64:

This is all you will need to make the schematics https://linux-sunxi.org/A64, if something is missing then ask the sunxi community and they will help you the documents are 200+ pages majority of that is just for developer reference and marketing garbage soignore most of it and just look though the table on page 2 for the things you are looking for.

doing that this way would take you around 9 hours of work which you can skip through using https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/tree/master/HARDWARE/A64-OLinuXino

now you have a dirt cheap linux computer (A64 is +- 2 EUR) that can be used without a problem as daily driver and can be adjusted to do whatever you want

e.g. you want to make a drone -> you add motors to the "bus" (read up on this it's a solution to manage additional devices such card readers, joysticks, etc.. etc..) which basically works by soldering 1~2 wires to the right place and they will then be available for you to manage on the software-end

once you are happy with the spaghetti monster you've created then you open KiCAD and remove things you don't need and use your spaghetti wires to figure out where to put in the traces you want (very easy)

@dgr @fsf e.g. this is a good reference for designing the software of a drone https://invidious.tiekoetter.com/watch?v=LmEcyQnfpDA

@kreyren @fsf A A64 based dirt cheap Linux computer able to be used as daily driver? You're delusional, that thing is capable of using 2GB RAM max and I'm using 5GB with only ~ 60 tabs open! Maybe I'm wrong and it can handle more but the site is down. https://linux-sunxi.org/A64 - I get a host error from cloudflare...

@dgr @fsf it's arm-based system so it manages system resources differently so that e.g. your web browser doesn't need to use as much RAM and can be further optimized compared to x86_64 systems for me i can use 200 tabs without much of an issue on firefox.

Works for programming quite well assuming that you do offloading to a system that has more resources for compilation of complicated things e.g. using gitpod or nix daemon otherwise you will have to wait +- the average amount.

e.g. Pinebook and Pinephone (non-pro) are using A64 (though i discourage their use):
* https://invidious.tiekoetter.com/watch?v=k1hHRMIod0A
* https://invidious.tiekoetter.com/watch?v=bCO1CYvffQw

Note that this is just an example in general A64 is used for prototyping (bcs it's well documented and cheap) to then use whatever different chip you want e.g. the mentioned TUSKLA or RK3399/RK3588 and all the way to Snapdragon 845 (https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Qualcomm_Snapdragon_845_(SDM845)) and beyond or if you want RISC-V, MIPS, etc..

@dgr @fsf and FSF's certification is actively causing harm to the OSHW as they encourage proprietary developers to develop more hardware that doesn't respect the user freedom to fix that @fsf should rename the campaign on "respects your software freedom"

@dgr @fsf According to my lawyer the schematics do not fit the scope defined by GPLv3 so best treated as proprietary, bcs despite my efforts and desperate calls of the reprap project to make stallman understand the problem and update GPLv3 he's just incompetent and doesn't care which enables people to take OSHW ender-3 printers licensed under GPLv3 and fabricate proprietary forks off of without any legal consequences..

It should be using CERN license or alike instead.

@dgr @fsf Also you don't really need to order the PCBs from china i am in czechia and i have lot of options to make the PCBs locally either in hacker/makerspace where there are the tools needed to make multi-layer PCBs or through hiring a professional company like zebrapcb that makes them in house for me in general the TERES-1 boards are 8 layer PCBs that cost 180~250 EUR per 5.

OLIMEX is making the pcbs in bulgaria where they get better fabrication cost (due to their automotive industry) compared to china and similar cases across the EU.

@kreyren @fsf I was mentioning china because there disregard for intellectual property and willingness to flood the market with a clone and thus killing the company that produced the original and was nice enough to provided all the files for the fab. See Rossmann about Framework. This is a real fear for companies like them.

@dgr @fsf It's really the company's fault if they have a business plan that is vulnerable to other companies making the same design as there are professional services with CNC machines that take all of the components off of the PCB, remove the solder mask and then slowly remove layer by layer to take high resolution pictures to make their own design such as in china and like if you have a precise enough CNC then you can do that yourself it's not really difficult to do..