@louiscouture they are a bit confused but have the right spirit.

@louiscouture well workplace democracy could do wonder tbh. Electing your hierarchy, defining investments and wages. And because you HAVE TO work, pretty much like you have to live in a country, you should have a democratic control over it :)

@louiscouture @Xalef @MilquetoastQT @adidal
Somewhere along the lines the right wing became anti-corporate and the left became hardcore "social justice capitalist". The left is undoubtably everything old Socialists would have fought to prevent. They still have the same old "feel" of course- the feel that leftists are peaceful, anti-war, anti-authority, anti-corporate, and righties are conservitard oligarch RINOs. Obviously nothing could be farther from the truth.

You can see the shift with the rhetoric of right wing figureheads today. Always arguments and attacks against international finance, corporate oligarchs, and actual oppression. Now you see why corporate supports the left.

@Sudononymous @MilquetoastQT @louiscouture @Xalef

> corporate supports the left

You mean liberals? Cause last time I've checked, the corporate world universally hates trade unionists and workplace democracy activists

@adidal @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef Corporations support Leftist slogans because they think it will keep Leftists from wanting their blood.

CEOs aren't expert political theorists. At least not by default. They may be interested in various subjects, but political theory may not be one of them.

Maybe, in a sense, the Leftists are right. CEOs are so disconnected from everyone else's reality that they don't understand what is going on. Of course, no one appreciates all of the stuff that we have, that is produced, how it came about, none of it. Well, I won't say "no one", but not enough for my liking.

Just be prepared for fewer economic goods, is all I can say. And war, and blood, and prisons.

@MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef

CEOs and more importantly shareholders do not need to be political theorists to be aware of the power they yield over economical and political spheres.

YOU work, and yet, THEY reap the product of your work; YOU, as an employee, CREATE wealth, and as shareholders, THEY have the "right" to take part of it WITHOUT even taking part of the production process.

Because YOU are the one working, YOU should be the one yielding this power.

@adidal @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef My work would not exist without them. Investment precedes labor. I could work for myself on the farm, but why not work together in the market to increase output? Why work alone when we can work together in peace? No one understands this is precisely what they are doing when they have a job. AND have the added benefit of wealth? There's no losing in the market. There's losing in statism.

The market determines what is valuable. You and I are the market. EVERYONE is the market. That's why it works. That's why it satisfies. The market determines what labor satisfies the most people the most. Otherwise, we have a dictatorship, where one man dictates what labor we must do, and no one is satisfied.

@MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef

> Investment precedes labor

indeed! but dont forget that investors have this money by stealing it from YOUR labor in the first place.

ppl can setup credit unions to replace them and fulfill this investment role. not only worker-owned businesses are profiting from this, but also the workers who own the credit union !

@adidal @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef Not necessarily. Fractional-reserve banking, which we have, sure.

You're ignoring savings and people who start their own companies by those savings. That's not theft.

@adidal @MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @Xalef I don’t think you grasp who are investor.

Middle class people can invests, it’s not just the rich people.

@louiscouture @MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @Xalef
even though I dont believe there is such thing as "the middle class", I get your point ; not all investors are billionaire. they can be fellow workers too.

but our problem stays the same ; no one should have the right to appropriate the work of others.

and thats what ppl do through stocks ; they own parts of companies and expect dividends at the end of the year, even though they didn't took part in the wealth creation process of this company

@adidal @louiscouture @Sudononymous @Xalef You really don't understand how investment works. When you buy parts of a company, that company uses that money to invest further, trying to expand. You're essentially giving them financial capital. You are directly impacting the wealth of the company. You give the company far more wealth that way than being at the bottom. Therefore, you are, by very deffinition, more valuable to them. This is why you are compensated as you are through dividends, stock value you can sell, etc. Putting ice in a cup doesn't help the company expand as much as investing $1,000. But people at the bottom put their fingers in their ears with envy. They don't care to understand wealth, so they make up what makes them feel better. And because they don't understand wealth, or, actually, because they despise it, they make everyone poor and starve to death. That's a piss-poor justification for envy. Get over it and grow up.

You are focusing on small potatoes, as Commies usually do.

There was a time when I hated managers, and thought cashiers or assemblers or people at the bottom kept the company alive. Except that minimum wage earners don't care if the company lives or dies, especially if they have no experience, esprcially if they are envious. It's good for them to be told whay to do by those who get the bigger picture. The higher up you go, the more the bigger picture is umderstood. Most people at the bottom don't undersgand anything but what is right in front of them. They don't understand sales at all. They don't care about loss, they only imagine profit, because they have never looked at the financial statements. It's just ignorance and envy that stews until you get Commies making everybody poor, which is what is happening today.

Commies have no idea how good they have it as compared to Communism. They are blinded by envy, ignore historical reality, are only motivated by hatred and blood, and could not care less about the poor: they just hate the rich.

@MilquetoastQT @adidal @Sudononymous @Xalef I think that on the field employees can have some interesting perspective and managers that listen to their employees ideas can benefit from new money making opportunities

@louiscouture @adidal @Sudononymous @Xalef This is not true the majority of the time.

Most at the bottom are lazy, in my experience. They can't grasp things higher up.

Blinded by wealth envy. No undersyanding of why things are why they are so they just throw the word "greed" around.

Your average person is an egalitarian.

@MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef

so let me get this straight :

ppl who have to work, who are at the bottom, are lazy and envious for not wanting to get anything stolen from them ?

its like saying "thief-haters are jealous at the thief cause they wish they were smart enough to break into other ppl houses"

@adidal @MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @Xalef people decided to work for these bosses. They never were forced to work for them in particular.

I’m not saying there’s no exploitation in the workplace but to call it theft is exaggerated

@louiscouture @MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @Xalef
unless u work in a cooperative (so a workplace democracy), a non for profit organization, or you are self-employed, then u have no choice but to work for them in order to survive.

choice is nothing but an illusion for that matter.

@louiscouture @MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @Xalef besides that, dont you wish u were able to elect your hierarchy and be able to held them accountable for their actions? like in a regular democracy? to me, thats what a real meritocracy looks like.

@adidal @louiscouture @Sudononymous @Xalef You are ignoring their meritocracy, loser.

You are ignoring their work and what they did to get there because you suck.

@adidal @MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @Xalef Z

Sure, that would be an awesome thing to do,

However, nothing is stopping you from starting your own cooperative and be managed democratically. I encourage you to do so

@MilquetoastQT @adidal @Sudononymous @Xalef you know nothing about him. Let’s not judge people or call them names just because of disagreements

@louiscouture @adidal @Sudononymous @Xalef Context clues, buddy.

If he had skills he wouldn't be complaining about being at the bottom.

And I doubt he's handicapped.
@adidal @louiscouture @Sudononymous @Xalef Make it happen, cap'n.

How would you run a corporation if you can't even start and operate a cooperative hahahahaha
@adidal @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef Nothing is being stolen. You don't own the products you help produce. The ownership of the products existed before you were hired, buddy.

That'd be like you hire me to mow your lawn and then I say "This is my lawn now." "But I worked for this property."

@MilquetoastQT @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef

and guess what ; none of this requires the state's intervention in the economy. you still keep market mechanisms without exploitation.

@adidal @Sudononymous @louiscouture @Xalef A worker's uprising is still theft unless they were slaves held at gunpoint. Being a "wage slave" is a product of nature. It's like saying "I'm a labor slave because I have to work for food." That's the Fall of Man. In that sense, yes, we are all slaves to labor of some kind or another.
@adidal @MilquetoastQT @louiscouture @Xalef Nope, I mean the left. The left likes social justice and the authorities that enforce it. They've totally abandonned all other pursuits, and the few people that stubbornly cling to ideals that have been left behind are totally irrelevant.
Unions will be broken because it'll be considered harmful racism that attacks the disabled female BIPOC that manages the company(as a puppet of course).
@louiscouture I still don't understand why everything gets hated on so much as soon as only the terms "marxist" or "socialist" or "communist" are involved

As if these people would only care for names, not for the ideas behind them

@fluff @louiscouture communism is the Plague
According to Uncle Sam

Remember cold war propaganda
@duponin @louiscouture I wasn't even living yet during cold war (except for if you'd say that the cold war never really ended)
Why do people hate something based on a name when they actually want that what the name is standing for??
@fluff @louiscouture don't you learned about during school? :thinking_cirno:
(I did)

Basically: communism = very bad
@duponin @louiscouture we obviously learned about Germans past with the DDR but it never was communism = bad but rather dictatorship and violent repression = bad :blobcatcool:
@fluff @louiscouture @duponin Well might help that Germany had both of the crap…
I think in France it's quite too close to the nazi = bad, stalin = screwed up.
Which is probably quite the other way around in America :(
@lanodan @fluff @louiscouture the USA would never have a communist political party, unlike in France

@duponin @lanodan @fluff @louiscouture Uh the DSA. They literally go around calling one another comrade.

@duponin @fluff @louiscouture i learnt that during the cold way the US was all-out in an anti-soviet (and by extension anti-commie) propaganda...

...but via osmosis on the internet, we barely covered that in history class :⁾;;
@fluff might be something to do with marxists and communists putting people in gulags or causing mass famines. I mean, if nazis are universally hates, why wouldn’t an ideology that had caused even more deaths be hated too?

@louiscouture - not sure about Marxism in big tech corps but they are surely totalitarian and oppressive. Be it Marxism, Communism, or Nazism doesn't matter as it's a label.

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