@davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite While I much prefer open RSS podcasts, and appreciate the sentiment against walled gardens, I have to note that “podcast” is a word derived from a defunct Apple product that greatly popularized the medium itself. I personally hope podcasts mostly remain indie and open to all via RSS but language policing feels like an indirect way to lobby for that
@palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite Mr. LaForge: An editor for the New York Times that calls it "language policing" when two commercial companies attempt to co-opt a label that has meant one thing since 2005, and use it for something different, deliberating blurring the line between them.
It's not language policing, it's you failing to recognize your own lack of resistance to nefarious corporate marketing, and perpetuating that misinformation as a result.
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite disagree? Go ask ten non-tech-savvy friends. (If you get different results I’ll be shocked.)
@aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
I’m sorry, are you arguing that the New York Times should base it’s editorial choices about technical products on the words non-technical average people use? The companies that market things using bad labels win if they convince enough non-savvy people?
Amazing and sad.
@pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty Seriously! This conversation is beginning to border on the ludicrous. In what other industry do industry terms get to be redefined by…like, whoever? Do average non-medical people get to define medical terms? Do average non-civil engineering people get to define civil engineering terms? Do the manufacturers of aerospace infrastructure get to have their terminology redefined by some (waves hands) mass group of people?
It's absurd.
@jaredwhite @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty Um, yes, people redefine “medical” or “engineering” terms all the time, and popular definitions often vary from the true “technical” definition. Language evolves through usage.
@aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty Not only do I disagree with this, it scares me. This is how we end up with "alt-facts" and conspiracy theories. Without some semblance of a shared reality where well-established terms actually mean something and they're hard to hijack by disingenuous parties, culture collapses.
@jaredwhite @aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty I’m not saying this is necessarily a *good* thing in all cases. I’m just noting how language actually evolves in reality. And yes, this *is* one of the vectors that leads us to "alt-facts” and conspiracy theories.
That said, I think the ship has sailed on the definition of “podcast”. The ship has definitely *not* sailed on advocating against making podcasts exclusive.
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I’m arguing that it’s unreasonable to expect non-tech-savvy people, *or the people who write for them*, to split hairs about terms that have clearly accepted meanings among the masses. It comes off sounding like Kimberly-Clark calling people out for referring to generic tissue as “Kleenex” - it’s fine, and even legally sound, but it’s not going to change anything.
@aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
@davew is in this thread and co-invented podcasting. I wonder if he thinks the word should be used to describe DRMed data locked into a single proprietary client. Does his word matter more or less than the two companies attempting to profit from redefining it?
@aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @davew
Please also note that I am not attempting to accost random non-savvy friends who don’t know better, but am instead responding to someone whose bio describes him as an editor for the New York Times. If a person I don’t know walks down the street talking about the “Joe Rogan podcast,” I feel no need or desire to correct them. If I see that phrase in America’s paper of record, I wonder if everything else in the paper is as poorly informed.
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @davew Having read many things in the NYT and other sources of generally-great journalism about things I know more about, I can say with confidence that you should never assume that any journalist is particularly well-informed about anything. 🤣 The good ones are trying hard, but they don’t know.
@aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @davew right, they don’t know, which is why it’s important to tell them.
This thread is ludicrous. Dave is right.
@pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
ignore the cynics. they never did anything useful but they sure do try to get in the way.
@davew @pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite FWIW, I’m not trying to get in the way, I just think that framing this as "you're using the word wrong” when most everyone else (and most dictionaries) use the word that way is a losing battle and is counter-productive. I *do* think it’s worth fighting the real fight, which is (as Dave said in another post): the web should belong to no-one.
@aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
we have work to do here. you are definitely getting in the way.
podcasting is the same as the web.
what you all are saying is that just by grabbing it spotify now owns it.
1. you're wrong
2. and who cares
we have work to do. this is a pointless worthless time-wasting discussion.
@davew @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I will shut up then.
@aelman @davew @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty I mean, I'm happy to agree with you that
> framing this as "you're using the word wrong”
is a good point. However, my contention would be that that's not my original framing. My original framing was to call out **journalists in the news** for refraining from calling out corporations who are abusing the term for their own gain. Big difference there.
@jaredwhite @davew my argument (and I swear this is my last comment on this, because I said I’d shut up) is that those corporations are not “abusing the term for their own gain” - they're using the term CORRECTLY as it is popularly understood, but they’re engaging in a business practice that we think violates the spirit of the web. Arguing the semantics feels like a losing strategy to win a critical battle here. But TBH I don’t have a better one, so I’ll shut up.
@jaredwhite @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty I think a podcast with a paywall is still a podcast, in English. Would I pay for a podcast service? I give money to MaxFun, Relay and others. I am glad they don’t twist my arm. But there are many ways to raise revenue to support content. They can all coexist. It is up to the users
@palafo @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty Again, not the issue. I 100% agree with you that a podcast with a paywall is still a podcast…
…as long as that podcast is provided via a unique URL which serves an RSS feed which can be loaded into my player (Pocket Casts).
I actually subscribe to several membership podcasts behind a paywall, and this is exactly how it works! If exclusive shows from Apple, Spotify, and any others worked in this manner, there'd be no further debate necessary.
@jaredwhite @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty I prefer that as well and hope there is enough user pressure so that remains the standard. I do worry about fragmentation or companies breaking the open network. The ecosystem also seems overly reliant on the “free” Apple directory.
@palafo @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty Yeah, the free Apple directory was the gift that kept on giving, but it's definitely come at a cost. I wonder if it's too late to see a truly decentralized or at least community-driven discovery mechanism emerge at this point.
@jaredwhite @palafo @aelman @davew @davidtoddmccarty
What’s weird is that I’ve been using @overcastfm for so long, I couldn’t even remember where the Apple podcast directory was. When I went to look for it, it doesn’t seem to exist anymore! Apparently now it’s only visible within their app, not as a webpage? Although a bunch of other apps, including the one I use, apparently consume it somehow. Unless I’m just missing something, always possible, that is another strike against Apple for taking the open podcast directory off of the open web.
@jaredwhite @palafo @aelman @davew @davidtoddmccarty @overcastfm
What is the current alternative, especially given that Apple's podcast market share is apparently under 50%? A quick search turned up https://podcastindex.org/ which seemed promising, and an attempt to use DNS for a distributed https://openpodcastdirectory.org/ but it seems like the routine is still to go around and submit new feeds to all the different sites, including Apple's?
@pwinn @jaredwhite @aelman @davew @davidtoddmccarty @overcastfm None of the apps really need Apple index anymore, I believe. The main “value” Apple offers is ranking, centralized reviews and the potential for metrics (which ad people want). If decelopers need it, I am not sure why. You can enter any podcast RSS feed into any of the apps and chances are someone has already done so for the show you want. So each app has an index of a sort. Overcast has a great discovery tab. So do the others
@davew @aelman @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I agree with Dave. I think the web can flourish regardless of what various corporations do. They can’t buy the whole market.
@aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
Why it's so important to get clear on what podcasting is.
Because podcasting is like the web. And we're fighting for something much bigger than podcasting, something which *includes* podcasting, the ownership of the web itself.
Google has been acting like the owner of the web for a few years.
This is being covered up by the tech industry, but it is a fact and a public issue of the most importance.
The web belongs to no one.
Period.
@davew @aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
No-one except me.
@pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
obviously not. and obviously those people don't care what we think. but their users still expect to be able to listen to podcasts "where ever they get their podcasts" which is still what all real podcasts say.
the pretenders are pirates, and they should walk the plank.
i will never use spotify, and i'm getting out of using apple podcasts. fuck em. they won't get the benefit of our next innovation.
@davew @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite now *this* I can stand behind. I’m not about to boycott Apple or Spotify myself, but I use Pocket Casts personally and have zero interest in listening to podcasts I can’t get in my preferred player.
@davew @pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
As someone who does not use a smartphone, I can't even fathom syncing and listening to podcasts through an "App" (another hijacked term, but let's not even go there), much less to a program that's walled into an app.
It got so bad that I ended up writing my own podcast puller 😌
https://github.com/guyhoffman/podpuller
When I try to keep up, I get super annoyed when publishers don't go "RSS First" - There's even a rant about it on the github:
@hoffman @davew @pwinn @aelman @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I prefer Overcast myself. But people can do whatever they like. If someone wants to pay some company for an internet radio show, who cares? Lots of revenue models and people in this conversation have been wrong about paywalls before, including me
@palafo @davew @pwinn @aelman @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
I only care if they change the game in a way that people who want to continue to use open protocols are shut out from the content that would not have been possible without those protocols.
It's like this start-up I once saw that made JS code obfuscation software ("to protect your dev team's hard work"). Their product was using mostly open source JS libraries.
You can accept it, but I don't have to like it.
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @mastodon.social The idea that “podcast” has been redefined by Spotify or Apple is ridiculous. M-W definition: “a digital audio file made available on the internet for downloading to a computer or mobile device, typically available as a series, new installments of which can be received by subscribers automatically.” Other dictionaries are similar. This is just popular usage.
@aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite Ask ten non-tech-savvy friends if Facebook is the internet. Some will think it is, just like some people thought AOL was. They came at it from different directions: AOL had lots of proprietary content through their custom UI but also allowed you access to the internet, Facebook has mostly exclusive content (only viewable when logged in) but available via a browser.
In both cases, you needed to understand there was more to the internet.
PR departments redefining a thing: Descriptive linguistics
@aelman @palafo @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
when he calls it "policing" he's gaslighting. he's telling you he has no respect for you and he stopped listening. i would block him.
@davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I don’t believe I used the term “language policing” anywhere, and once again we all basically agree that ideal podcasting is in open RSS. As a user I don’t like walls. Dave himself said this discussion of a word was a distraction from the real issue
@palafo @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty This is what you wrote previously:
"I personally hope podcasts mostly remain indie and open to all via RSS but language policing feels like an indirect way to lobby for that"
I'm glad we agree that it would be ideal for podcasts to remain the open format that they've been from the moment they were invented in the first place.
But I don't think it's language policing to point out that the meaning of the word has been subverted in the pursuit of $$$.
@jaredwhite @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty Thank you. I couldn’t find it for some reason. I withdraw “language policing.”’ I was using a shorthand but had no intent to offend. And your urgent appeal for precision has certainly highlighted some important issues. I hope a better word rises up and probably will. Unfortunately the closest analogy is “podcast” but it need a modifier. Limited podcast. Paywall podvast. Feedless podcast. I dislike the idea of them as a web user.
@jaredwhite @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty I applaud you for pointing it out but it may be a losing battle. Putting my editor hat on, we have learned we can’t really tell people what words to use. The best we can hope is to add precision and description. I am sure there are many examples of this lack of precision in reports about this, which is bad.
@palafo @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty Perhaps it is a losing battle as some folks have pointed out…but the point I keep trying to make isn't what the average joe on the street thinks a podcast is. It's what Spotify thinks a podcast is. It's what Apple thinks a podcast is.
I'll never give up pushing back on their attempt to mainstream an updated concept of what a podcast is which veers away from what *was* the colloquial meaning of the word:
"Listen to our podcast wherever you find podcasts"
@jaredwhite @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty They are definitely messing with a good thing. It starts with a big payout to Joe Rogan and it ends with some indie podcaster paying to live in Joe’s garden. I appreciate your resolve
@palafo @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty That's a really good way to put it, and I appreciate your willingness to hear me out. 😊
@palafo
Public perception is not a valid excuse for an NY times editor perverting language around a public good for private capital. Calling a spotify or apple show a podcast is no different than calling AOL 'the internet' in 1998. You will regret it.
@jaredwhite @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty
@shuvit Thanks for the feedback
@pwinn @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite Philip, I don’t cover podcasting for The Times and I am an individual with my own opinions who does not speak for my employer and who is different from my employer. I have many differences with my colleagues and the institution but I do not air them in public. Judge my comments on their own without dragging that into it, please. thanks
@pwinn @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite Where did I say “language policing”? I was offering an opinion and understand yours. If enough users are frustrated that these programs do not behave like proper podcasts, a better word may arise. A paycast. A wallcast. Closed podcast. Dumbcasts. Brokencasts. Trashcasts. I remember for years Leo Laporte advocated we call all podcasts “netcasts” for this reason - get Apple branding out of it. We mostly agree, I think
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite now we’re talking about prescriptive linguistics vs descriptive linguistics. The truth is that most people don’t understand the underlying tech, and think of “podcasts” as “audio programs I can download to my device”. (N.b. the lack of success of video “podcasts” even though there’s no technical difference between audio and video!) I’m a fan of open RSS-based podcasts, but arguing the language is pointless.