@davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite While I much prefer open RSS podcasts, and appreciate the sentiment against walled gardens, I have to note that “podcast” is a word derived from a defunct Apple product that greatly popularized the medium itself. I personally hope podcasts mostly remain indie and open to all via RSS but language policing feels like an indirect way to lobby for that
@palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite Mr. LaForge: An editor for the New York Times that calls it "language policing" when two commercial companies attempt to co-opt a label that has meant one thing since 2005, and use it for something different, deliberating blurring the line between them.
It's not language policing, it's you failing to recognize your own lack of resistance to nefarious corporate marketing, and perpetuating that misinformation as a result.
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite now we’re talking about prescriptive linguistics vs descriptive linguistics. The truth is that most people don’t understand the underlying tech, and think of “podcasts” as “audio programs I can download to my device”. (N.b. the lack of success of video “podcasts” even though there’s no technical difference between audio and video!) I’m a fan of open RSS-based podcasts, but arguing the language is pointless.
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite disagree? Go ask ten non-tech-savvy friends. (If you get different results I’ll be shocked.)
@aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
@davew is in this thread and co-invented podcasting. I wonder if he thinks the word should be used to describe DRMed data locked into a single proprietary client. Does his word matter more or less than the two companies attempting to profit from redefining it?
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @davew Having read many things in the NYT and other sources of generally-great journalism about things I know more about, I can say with confidence that you should never assume that any journalist is particularly well-informed about anything. 🤣 The good ones are trying hard, but they don’t know.
@aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @davew right, they don’t know, which is why it’s important to tell them.
This thread is ludicrous. Dave is right.
@pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
ignore the cynics. they never did anything useful but they sure do try to get in the way.
@davew @pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite FWIW, I’m not trying to get in the way, I just think that framing this as "you're using the word wrong” when most everyone else (and most dictionaries) use the word that way is a losing battle and is counter-productive. I *do* think it’s worth fighting the real fight, which is (as Dave said in another post): the web should belong to no-one.
@aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
we have work to do here. you are definitely getting in the way.
podcasting is the same as the web.
what you all are saying is that just by grabbing it spotify now owns it.
1. you're wrong
2. and who cares
we have work to do. this is a pointless worthless time-wasting discussion.
@davew @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I will shut up then.
@aelman @davew @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty I mean, I'm happy to agree with you that
> framing this as "you're using the word wrong”
is a good point. However, my contention would be that that's not my original framing. My original framing was to call out **journalists in the news** for refraining from calling out corporations who are abusing the term for their own gain. Big difference there.
@jaredwhite @davew my argument (and I swear this is my last comment on this, because I said I’d shut up) is that those corporations are not “abusing the term for their own gain” - they're using the term CORRECTLY as it is popularly understood, but they’re engaging in a business practice that we think violates the spirit of the web. Arguing the semantics feels like a losing strategy to win a critical battle here. But TBH I don’t have a better one, so I’ll shut up.
@jaredwhite @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty I think a podcast with a paywall is still a podcast, in English. Would I pay for a podcast service? I give money to MaxFun, Relay and others. I am glad they don’t twist my arm. But there are many ways to raise revenue to support content. They can all coexist. It is up to the users
@palafo @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty Again, not the issue. I 100% agree with you that a podcast with a paywall is still a podcast…
…as long as that podcast is provided via a unique URL which serves an RSS feed which can be loaded into my player (Pocket Casts).
I actually subscribe to several membership podcasts behind a paywall, and this is exactly how it works! If exclusive shows from Apple, Spotify, and any others worked in this manner, there'd be no further debate necessary.
@jaredwhite @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty I prefer that as well and hope there is enough user pressure so that remains the standard. I do worry about fragmentation or companies breaking the open network. The ecosystem also seems overly reliant on the “free” Apple directory.
@palafo @aelman @davew @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty Yeah, the free Apple directory was the gift that kept on giving, but it's definitely come at a cost. I wonder if it's too late to see a truly decentralized or at least community-driven discovery mechanism emerge at this point.
@jaredwhite @palafo @aelman @davew @davidtoddmccarty
What’s weird is that I’ve been using @overcastfm for so long, I couldn’t even remember where the Apple podcast directory was. When I went to look for it, it doesn’t seem to exist anymore! Apparently now it’s only visible within their app, not as a webpage? Although a bunch of other apps, including the one I use, apparently consume it somehow. Unless I’m just missing something, always possible, that is another strike against Apple for taking the open podcast directory off of the open web.
@jaredwhite @palafo @aelman @davew @davidtoddmccarty @overcastfm
What is the current alternative, especially given that Apple's podcast market share is apparently under 50%? A quick search turned up https://podcastindex.org/ which seemed promising, and an attempt to use DNS for a distributed https://openpodcastdirectory.org/ but it seems like the routine is still to go around and submit new feeds to all the different sites, including Apple's?
@pwinn @jaredwhite @aelman @davew @davidtoddmccarty @overcastfm None of the apps really need Apple index anymore, I believe. The main “value” Apple offers is ranking, centralized reviews and the potential for metrics (which ad people want). If decelopers need it, I am not sure why. You can enter any podcast RSS feed into any of the apps and chances are someone has already done so for the show you want. So each app has an index of a sort. Overcast has a great discovery tab. So do the others
@davew @aelman @pwinn @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I agree with Dave. I think the web can flourish regardless of what various corporations do. They can’t buy the whole market.
@aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
Why it's so important to get clear on what podcasting is.
Because podcasting is like the web. And we're fighting for something much bigger than podcasting, something which *includes* podcasting, the ownership of the web itself.
Google has been acting like the owner of the web for a few years.
This is being covered up by the tech industry, but it is a fact and a public issue of the most importance.
The web belongs to no one.
Period.
@davew @aelman @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
No-one except me.
@pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
obviously not. and obviously those people don't care what we think. but their users still expect to be able to listen to podcasts "where ever they get their podcasts" which is still what all real podcasts say.
the pretenders are pirates, and they should walk the plank.
i will never use spotify, and i'm getting out of using apple podcasts. fuck em. they won't get the benefit of our next innovation.
@davew @pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite now *this* I can stand behind. I’m not about to boycott Apple or Spotify myself, but I use Pocket Casts personally and have zero interest in listening to podcasts I can’t get in my preferred player.
@davew @pwinn @aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
As someone who does not use a smartphone, I can't even fathom syncing and listening to podcasts through an "App" (another hijacked term, but let's not even go there), much less to a program that's walled into an app.
It got so bad that I ended up writing my own podcast puller 😌
https://github.com/guyhoffman/podpuller
When I try to keep up, I get super annoyed when publishers don't go "RSS First" - There's even a rant about it on the github:
@hoffman @davew @pwinn @aelman @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite I prefer Overcast myself. But people can do whatever they like. If someone wants to pay some company for an internet radio show, who cares? Lots of revenue models and people in this conversation have been wrong about paywalls before, including me
@palafo @davew @pwinn @aelman @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite
I only care if they change the game in a way that people who want to continue to use open protocols are shut out from the content that would not have been possible without those protocols.
It's like this start-up I once saw that made JS code obfuscation software ("to protect your dev team's hard work"). Their product was using mostly open source JS libraries.
You can accept it, but I don't have to like it.
@pwinn @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @mastodon.social The idea that “podcast” has been redefined by Spotify or Apple is ridiculous. M-W definition: “a digital audio file made available on the internet for downloading to a computer or mobile device, typically available as a series, new installments of which can be received by subscribers automatically.” Other dictionaries are similar. This is just popular usage.
@aelman @palafo @davidtoddmccarty @jaredwhite @davew
Please also note that I am not attempting to accost random non-savvy friends who don’t know better, but am instead responding to someone whose bio describes him as an editor for the New York Times. If a person I don’t know walks down the street talking about the “Joe Rogan podcast,” I feel no need or desire to correct them. If I see that phrase in America’s paper of record, I wonder if everything else in the paper is as poorly informed.