volkris @volkris@qoto.org
I think the most pressing and fundamental problem of the day is that people lack a practically effective means of sorting out questions of fact in the larger world. We can hardly begin to discuss ways of addressing reality if we can't agree what reality even is, after all.
The institutions that have served this role in the past have dropped the ball, so the next best solution is talking to each other, particularly to those who disagree, to sort out conflicting claims.
Unfortunately, far too many actively oppose this, leaving all opposing claims untested. It's very regressive.
So that's my hobby, striving to understanding the arguments of all sides at least because it's interesting to see how mythologies are formed but also because maybe through that process we can all have our beliefs tested.
But if nothing else, social media platforms like this are chances to vent frustrations that on so many issues both sides are obviously wrong ;)
Joined Dec 2022
OF COURSE the president controls the purse strings.
The Treasury, the purse, is part of the president's executive branch. To say the president doesn't control the purse strings is to miss the fundamental design of the US government, and the separation of powers between the branches.
Yes, Congress has to authorize access to the purse, but once that authority is given, the control is in the hand of the president, as he is head of the executive branch.
But the US doesn't need to borrow more money to service its debt. The Treasury will bring in enough money in tax revenues to service the outstanding debt. That's why all of this talk of default is mathematically silly. The Treasury has more than enough money to avoid default regardless of the debt ceiling.
Legally the president cannot order default, but technically it's up to him. If the president chooses not to service the debt, that would be an impeachable offense in my opinion.
But because the president controls those purse strings we need to hold him accountable for it, and call him out for it.
What you're missing is that the Court produces logical arguments that can stand or fall on their own merits, regardless of anything involving who writes those rulings.
The Court doesn't merely vote. It actually produces logical arguments, and that is central to its work, and yet that core activity of the Court is hardly mentioned by people complaining about all of this behind the scenes drama.
In other words, it doesn't actually matter one bit if the court is corrupt or not, as long as it produces logical opinions.
And if it doesn't produce logical opinions, it doesn't matter one bit if all of the justices are angels.
Of course we can tolerate a Supreme Court comprised of grifters because we get to see their rulings, and we get to judge the output of their work regardless of who writes the rulings.
If they are grifters who are writing good rulings, great! Or if they are honest but write bad rulings, then it doesn't matter how honest they are, they are doing a disservice to the country.
All of this focus on personality instead of results is a dramatic distraction from the actual work of government in our democratic system.
It's pretty antisocial, pretty misguided.
@TCatInReality @crooksandliars
I mean, why do you disagree? What is your argument?
I mean each of us can understand civics and understand the functioning of our own government for ourselves. In fact I'd say it's vital to a democratic institution that the people do understand the way their government works.
To just accept claims without reasoning is a problem here.
If a ruling is correct, I really don't care if it was bought.
If a ruling is wrong, I really don't care if it wasn't bought.
That's because we can judge rulings on their own merits without needing to speculate or consider any behind the scenes drama. A ruling is right or wrong regardless of anything related to the personality involved.
To put it another way, if we get correct rulings because they are being bought, then goodness, let's have more buying of correct rulings! If that's what it takes to get good rulings, then great!
But in reality, it just doesn't matter because we can judge rulings on their own merit.
@StOnSoftware @LFpete @rbreich
That there can't be a debt ceiling is going to be news to all of us who are talking about the debt ceiling that exists 🙂
Right, but the US has enough income to pay the debts it has already incurred, which the president is constitutionally required to pay.
Right, he won't be able to borrow more, but he will be able, and he will be required to, service the debt that has already been entered into.
No. Politicizing the branch that is specifically supposed to be above politics is just a bad idea.
Judge the justices based on their work, not based on any of this personal stuff.
All of their opinions are public. We can read them ourselves. THAT is what they should be held accountable for, not their personal lives, not this TV drama nonsense.
I really don't care what a justice does in his free time. I only care about his rulings.
No that gets it backwards.
The Treasury has plenty of money to pay its debts, Biden's own Treasury says so, and yet President Biden is threatening default if he is not given this extra power to borrow.
He's the one who wrote the ransom note.
No that's factually false. If you pull up the documents directly from the legislature, they were not punished for peaceful protests.
They were punished for breaking the rules that they themselves had already agreed to, and so the accountability that they also agreed to was triggered.
You can't just stand in the way of the democratic process without facing any consequences.
@Pat That's not how the federal government works.
You can't overturn a constitutional matter with a simple majority of one house of the legislature.
@TCatInReality @crooksandliars
You're missing that it's not a case of one law taking precedent over other.
Congressional appropriation laws are permission to spend what is there. The president still has permission to spend even if he mathematically can't.
It's like, I can write a law giving you permission to flap your arms and fly around the room, and even if that's not possible, it's still the law. You still absolutely do have that permission. That you can't actually use that permission doesn't mean you don't have permission.
So really it's not one law taking precedent over another. It's economic reality, math, taking precedent over legislation, and that's exactly how it is supposed to work.
@TCatInReality @crooksandliars
Why couldn't it possibly be constitutional? Rather, it absolutely IS constitutional!
It's just the democratic process at work.
If we elect people to shut down the government, well, that is the word of the people. We get what we vote for.
@StOnSoftware @LFpete @rbreich
It's not, though, and that's the whole issue here.
The federal government never knows exactly how much tax revenue it will bring in every year. If nothing else, the unpredictability of the economy means it might bring in a lot more this year or a lot less this year.
So deficit spending is linked to unpredictable levels of taxation, so borrowing levels cannot be derived from other decisions Congress makes.
That's why the power to borrow has to be separate from anything else.
@cathyginter@universeodon.com
Most of those are state programs, so it's a bit silly to point to the federal Congress as impacting them.
Well yeah, but given that the Treasury will have the income to pay the debts, they would be horrified that the president is proposing not paying them and threatening the country with default as a rhetorical stunt.
And so many politicians and people are buying into that rhetoric.
Right, carrying too much debt should be addressed while making budgets, but the last Congress didn't do it, so what do we do now? That's the big question we are dealing with now.
The last Congress really let us down. This Congress is dealing with the mess left over.
Anyway, we cannot do away with the debt ceiling stuff since the debt ceiling is simply the word we use to describe the permission the legislative branch gives to the executive branch to borrow money. It is just the word for permission being granted.
The Treasury has plenty of revenue incoming to pay its debts, so defaulting is not on the table unless the president decides to default.
The GOP isn't pursuing default, and doesn't even have the ability to pursue it since Democrats hold the White House.
Whether or not the debt ceiling is raised, the Treasury can pay its debts. The rest is up to the Democrat in charge of the executive branch.
@TCatInReality @crooksandliars
The problem is that the laws the last Congress passed are impossible to execute.
The last Congress ordered the president to spend a bunch of money that doesn't exist. So what is he supposed to do with that? If I give you $20 and order you to spend $50 of it, what do you do?
Well fortunately with a system of coequal branches the president doesn't actually have to execute impossible laws. He just does his best, and is subject to impeachment anyway.
But there is no room for a SCOTUS challenge there.
The thing is, the US Treasury will have enough revenue to pay its debts, so defaulting is absolutely not on the table unless the president decides for himself to default.
I think the most pressing and fundamental problem of the day is that people lack a practically effective means of sorting out questions of fact in the larger world. We can hardly begin to discuss ways of addressing reality if we can't agree what reality even is, after all.
The institutions that have served this role in the past have dropped the ball, so the next best solution is talking to each other, particularly to those who disagree, to sort out conflicting claims.
Unfortunately, far too many actively oppose this, leaving all opposing claims untested. It's very regressive.
So that's my hobby, striving to understanding the arguments of all sides at least because it's interesting to see how mythologies are formed but also because maybe through that process we can all have our beliefs tested.
But if nothing else, social media platforms like this are chances to vent frustrations that on so many issues both sides are obviously wrong ;)
Joined Dec 2022
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