@freemo @HarryChenPhD @elia

Let me say that while China is a human rights violator this is nothing compared to the US Empire and what it did for decades and is currently doing to the rest of the world, in addition to their hypocrisy in presenting their selves as defenders of democracy.

Also it's worth noticing that during this virus crisis Italy didn't get any help from other European countries like Germany or France nor from USA. What Europe got from USA now are 30 000 soldiers which officially came for military exercises as if the coronavirus was not here.

On the other hand China sent us in Italy masks with encouraging messages (see image below, it says: "we are with you, come on Italy!").

@freemo @HarryChenPhD @elia

Little update:

Xiaomi donates tens of thousands of masks to Italy; "We are waves of the same sea, leaves of the same tree, flowers of the same garden"

https://it.mashable.com/coronavirus/2275/xiaomi-dona-migliaia-di-mascherine-allitalia

No news from Western politically correct corporations like Apple, Google, Microsoft and so on, they are in just when it's a matter of exploiting workers rights in China.

We should think about what's worse: the Chinese government or our neoliberist and neofeudal world?

And in the meanwhile Assange...

@post

Again, they are the ones who released the virus on the world... Sending a few masks is hardly enough to make up for that. Better than nothing, sure, but it doesnt come close to making up for the problems they caused in the first place.

@HarryChenPhD @elia

@freemo

(hey it's great here there isn't a character limit! Many thanks!!)

First of all I don't feel this division between my people and chinese people, we are all humans and this could had happened to every country in the world. My criticism is always towards governaments and not people. Nobody in China deserved this, no matter how bad their governament is.

Also I think yours are too early assumptions: a few years ago a virus research center was opened in Wuhan. As the Western world felt that China was appropriating scientific research conducted in there, an agreement was made to share more research in this area and this agreement included the construction of this laboratory in Wuhan. China would have shared its resources with the Western countries but the latter, through the World Health Organization, would have had some control over this laboratory.

A few months ago there was a news about a coronavirus transfered from USA to this laboratory without informing the China, who expressed disappointment and we didn't get any further news on this.

Later right in Wuhan appears the famous Covid-19.

Also in 2017 the World Bank in collaboration with the already mentioned WHO issued the so called Pandemic Bonds, that were basically a bet there would had been a coronavirus epidemic, probably from China, for at least 12 weeks and between 2020 and 2022.

So there is chance this was planned on some degree by Western organizations and maybe they lost control of the phenomenon.

@post I dont think there is a division between my people or chinese people either... But we cant escape the fact that the chinese government were the only ones who could do anything about handling hte virus before it got into he wild.

Failure to contain the virus rests solely on their governments shoulders. They have a history of suppressing information during outbreaks to reduce panic and to ensure the government doesnt look bad. The end result of this dishonesty, and general lack of trust int he government, is exactly why the virus spread as it has.

So as much as I agree with your spirit of "we are all one people" in any functional sense that doesnt help your argument much.

As for the transder of the coronavirus... thats mostly unrelated. There are many types of coronavirus in the wild already, they arent noteworthy (10% - 20% of all cold cases are a type of corona virus). So mostly a moot point.

Plus we already know where the coronavirus came from anyway, so not much guessing needed.

@freemo

The president of the Italian professional order of biologists claims that the Italian virus is different from the Chinese one and it originated from Italian zootechnical industry (animal farming).

It's too early for conclusions like yours...

@post

Strongly disagree. No doubt USA is a human rights violater as with every major power, no arguments, but they dont even come CLOSE to china's violations. Come on are you really going to justify a country that 1) annexes countries and forces them to be part of china 2) forces people into reprogramming facilities against their will for things as simple as their choice of religion.

As for china giving more help to Italy than America, even if thats true, considering thye are the ones who started the Corona virus I would very much hope so! They should be doing a lot more than that.

@HarryChenPhD @elia

@freemo

We, Italy, are actually a colony of the US Empire.

Wars by USA after WWII:

1950–1953 Korean War
1960–1975 Vietnam War
1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion (Cuba)
1983 Grenada
1989 US Invasion of Panama
1990–1991 Persian Gulf War
1995–1996 Intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina
2001–present Invasion of Afghanistan
2003–2011 Invasion of Iraq
2004–present War in Northwest Pakistan
2007–present Somalia and Northeastern Kenya
2009–2016 Operation Ocean Shield (Indian Ocean)
2011 Intervention in Libya
2011–2017 Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda
2014–2017 US-led Intervention in Iraq
2014–present US-led intervention in Syria
2015–present Yemeni Civil War
2015–present US intervention in Libya

Not to mention what USA did to Italy between in the '70 and '80, the creation of European Union that is actually a genocide of European people, Greek ones in particular, the International Monetary Funds that is doing the same in Africa... I can continue but tell me if this is all new to you.

With respect, comparing China to US is ridiculous, it's like comparing Napoleon to Hitler.

@post I disagree. There is a **huge** difference between simply fighting a war and actually annexing land.

While the USA **is** in the wrong, the fact remains that at the end of the war we never actually take the land for ourselves.

There is a huge difference between aiding locals in their own civil war and letting them govern themselves after, and taking over a country and going "now this is china too".

Yes the USA shouldnt be engaging in wars, but they even d that more ethically than china (which isnt hard to do).

@freemo

Oh please mate, how can you be so naive... the US one is an empire, the Empire. They control Europe, South America, Africa and Middle East on different degrees... the only countries that are more free are presented by Western media like the worse dictatorships: Russia, China, North Korea, Venezuela and so on...

If you listen only to the mainstream media you will have a distorted view of reality. The bad guys are USA, no doubt on this. No stupid excuses. You have an Internet connection to do your research, no? Just do it, hear what others have to say.

And what about Assange? Do you know what he revealed on the Iraq War and how US are punishing him and killing journalism?

China violanting human rights... oh Jesus. Oh Jesus you know nothing

@post I dont listen to any mainstream meia, ever, havent even had cable or any news subscriptions for years.

I never said the USA wasnt bad, but they dont even come **close** to china.

It amazes me anyone could even think that isnt true between the forced reprogramming centers and the fact that anyone who dares to even hold a protest goes to jail and is never seen again, and lets not even get into their firewall...

There is literally no comparison.

@freemo

You think so just because you have no idea of what US did and what it is doing.

Months ago we had a governament crisis in Italy and we changed it without elections. There are different reasons but a big one is still US: they had to stop the agreement on 5G by the previous governament and Huawei.

And do you know US has 70+ atomic bombs in Italy?

I live in a very small town with less then 5000 people but here we have a US military base and we, Italians, don't know what they do there. Neither do our military forces.

These days as I mentioned 30 000 soldiers arrived in Europe from US.

And this is nothing. In the future the world will discover Modern Monetary Theory and will realize that all the sufferings from neoliberist policies like austerity were totally useless, that the public debt was a lie. They will discover the biggest genocide of the history that is involving people from all around the world, all the people affected by these criminal economic policies. The world will discover poverty and unemployment are just a criminal policies and easily avoidable. People will realize all their sufferings and deaths of their beloved were caused by an ideology that made thousands and thousands more victims than any communist regime.

@freemo @post @HarryChenPhD China started the coronavirus... I think I read enough...

@elia @HarryChenPhD @post

By that I mean, it originated in a china, as a result of bush meat consumption that was unregulated. They did not use proper measures to contain or prevent the virus.

I did **not** mean that they intentionally engineered or released the virus or any sort of conspiracy nonsense.

@freemo @HarryChenPhD @post ok, they could surely improve hygienic conditions, but I don't know how much that can prevent new viruses from forming. I don't blame that on China. Instead I think they handled the situation really well from the beginning.

@elia @HarryChenPhD @post

It would have been very easy to stop. Most new viruses come from consuming bush meat (meat from wild animals). It is the top reason why bush meat is illegal in much of the world, for this very reason.

If they had either made bush meat ilegal, or at least regulated its consumption to ensure sick animals werent consumed, this could have been easily prevented.

In short the coronavirus is a direct result of their legal policy regarding meat.

@freemo

The problem is not the virus per se, it's just a cold. Otherwise there would have been no problem: the seriously ill with other pathologies would have been hospitalized. There would have been no need for any restrictive measures and panic would not have been triggered.

The problem is that our health system suffered from neoliberist policies and is about to collapse for a simple cold.

This is the reality, when you know certain things this is just the simple rational conclusion.

@freemo @elia @post I think the root of the problem was that the central government of china tried to cover up the virus instead of dealing with it from the beginning...now, I am not going to cite hundreds of sources on this, just google it...there are many many accredited journalists that reported it

@HarryChenPhD

Yup thats exactly what I was saying from the get-go China's tendency to cover things up and lie is a huge part of how this started and was also a huge part of the SARS epidemic.

@elia @post

@freemo @elia @post totally agree, you sound like you've been. I dont know how to like a post on this app yet...but I like a lot of yours

@HarryChenPhD

The origins of coronavirus seem to be a bit more complex because it seems like it originated from a rare contact of wild animals that rarely mix in natural conditions, but are frequently poached and sold on anti-sanitary markets for use in Traditional Chinese Medicine.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00364-2

@freemo @elia @post

@HarryChenPhD

TCM is obviously pseudo-science and usage of protected animals is barbaric.

Now, on one hand it's strongly supported by China government, who lobbied at WHO to consider it part of medicine. On the other hand, it tried to modify TCM canon to exclude animal ingredients and officially banned poaching. On yet another hand, the "illegal" markets are flourishing which means they are being protected by officials.

@freemo @elia @post

@kravietz @freemo @elia @post

There is no evidence that TCM even work...the communist party did however promote a medicine that was majority owned by high ranking party members...that medicine was sold out over night and was quackery and witchcraft. There was quote afterwards, "if the party told people dog shit was the cure the entire worlds supply of dog shit would be dug up over night".

Every chinese hospital prescribes western meds coupled with chinese meds, most people just throw away the herbal stuff. Their insurance company's cover the cost of the TCM otherwise the industry would buckle...and industry that's heavily invested in by high ranking party members...good luck getting testing done on those "medicines"...

Now as for the meds that come from animals, they are mostly boner medicine...google it, I'm not joking

@kravietz @freemo @elia @post

I'm sorry, I would have to see proof. Besides, the outbreak happened in Wuhan, hence the name "Wuhan pneumonia". You might be surprised to learn that this virus is a mutation of the original, that mutation happened in Wuhan which only further solidifies the name "Wuhan pneumonia". We aren't going to start deconstructing the name of every virus or only the virus' that the Communist party of China is campaigning to have changed ?

Also, I am well aware of the wet markets and the practices at said markets. I had been shopping at a similar one for more than 20 years.

@HarryChenPhD

No solid proof, but ver strong evidence the virus originated in pangolin trade. Aside from the fact that the first cases were known to occur from customers that bought from a store that sells pangolin meat what evidence we have in analyzing the virus itself suggests it is mutated from a virus commonly present in the pangolin population.

@kravietz @elia @post

@HarryChenPhD

Please see the linked Nature article in my comment, based on the following original publication from South China Agricultural University in Guangzhou https://scau.edu.cn/2020/0207/c1300a219015/page.htm

@freemo @elia @post

@kravietz @freemo @elia @post I'm sorry, I would need to see a publication from a non bias source. That university can't report findings that are not in line with the state agenda...I'm not alone in opinion either, no reputable academic would honour a citation from a chinese university on a politically sensitive matter.

@HarryChenPhD @kravietz @freemo @elia

Please untag me from this particular argument cause I think it's really too early to have sensible discussions on the subject due to the partial and contradictory data we currently have.

@HarryChenPhD

Well, living in 80's communist Poland and visiting Russia a lot I can understand *that* argument :) On the other hand, if this TCM industry is dominated by party people, why would a state university undermine their business by publishing such news if it wasn't legitimate research?

@freemo @elia

@kravietz @freemo @elia
The state owns the university...how would that undermine their business? Have you checked the population in China? Also you can google the quality of universities in China...they are a joke, which is why anyone with money has their children educated abroad.

@HarryChenPhD

Shadow economy doesn't like publicity. Any publications about the link between TCM and Covid-19 is damaging for TCM simply because it increases pressure on the Chinese government to enforce its own regulations, ban on poaching etc.

@freemo @elia

@HarryChenPhD @freemo @elia

@HarryChenPhD

BTW from the presentation I just posted - this explains the whole connection with pangolins and bats

@freemo @elia

@kravietz @freemo @elia I'm not a medical doctor and I have no idea what any of that means...I'm sorry

@HarryChenPhD

TTTAGC... are RNA bases. The table shows tiny differences between RNA of various viral strains.

@freemo @elia

@kravietz @freemo @elia tiny differences at that level are huge...I'm going to stand with popular science on this and say the origin is still unknown and the virus seems to have come from animals however, there are also some suspicious elements to the virus that warrant investigations...which is what China, for some reason, is trying to avoid.

@HarryChenPhD

You are welcome to that opinion, but it isnt popular science. The "popular science" or rather, the most accepted theory at the moment, is that the virus comes from a pangolin.

This has been confirmed several ways 1) the source of the virus came from a market selling pangolins, this was known prior to any genetic sequencing and 2) genetic sequencing shows it is closely related to the virus present in pangolin populations/

@kravietz @elia

@elia @freemo @post really? You think they handled it well since the beginning? They were caught trying to cover it up...Dr. Li told some friends who told the world and that doctor was arrested and interrogated for days, he later died...so he cabt testify to that...so you can imagine my amazement to hear you think they handled it really well since the beginning. If I might ask, what was it that stood out from the december outbreaks that made you believe that the communist party of china acted so well...because they didnt officially act for 30 days...so during that 30 day period, what was it that stood out to you?🧐

@HarryChenPhD @elia @freemo

I didn't say so. But Italy and in future USA are risking a total collapse and we don't even have monetary sovereignty to save people.

This is not China's fault, our system was extremely fragile because of the same neoliberist ideology that is making exploitaion of workers in China a reality.

@post @elia @freemo china told everyone to resume trade as normal and not to shut down the airports...WHO later backed china after taking a visit there...so you are saying that's not China's fault? Why are you even talking about the US? What do they have to do with anything?

@HarryChenPhD

I think this goes back to what I said, everything centers around his hate for the US and "neo-liberals".. i think he is so hyperfocused on that he probably brings all world-issues back to the USA.. It seems to be a pattern I see since talking to him.

@post @elia

@freemo @post @elia US was smart to shut down its boarders, nothing reviled around them this time, which is why this matter has been so politically unique

@HarryChenPhD @freemo @post Well, it's easy to put blame after the fact. I think every single country out there is trying to cover it up as well right now. Because no one wants to loose the competitive edge.
I think the Chinese authorities did well in silencing rumors and later imposing the Wuhan quarantine. Here in Italy the goverment's measures were leaked the day before they were enacted, allowing people to escape all over Italy, away from Lombardy, the pandemic's epicenter.
China may have acted 30 days late, but Italy later and all other countries even later. So I think they acted comparatively pretty quickly and efficiently. They also acknowledged the errors made, so there is room for improvement and it's a much better signal then "the coronavirus is a democrat's new hoax".
Regarding Dr. Li, his story is very sad, but from what I know, the Chinese authorities completely discharged him from any accusations days before his death. He surely did his best given the circumstances.
Of course *if* the virus potential damage was better assessed, they could have acted much sooner and avoid terrible mistakes, but unfortunately humans do not understand the exponential function.

@freemo

No, they are way better than Western countries when it comes to these crisis.

I don't like the Chinese being so militarized and that they don't care of liberal democracy and other rights but when these crisis happen they show the advantage of their social organization. China will certainly recover from this crisis. It is the western world with its neoliberist ideology and its stupid budgetary constraints that is likely to collapse.

@elia @freemo @post the virus did start in China...the Chinese state media isnt hiding that fact...there is a famous Shanghai doctor that has said as much on douyin(tiktok)

@HarryChenPhD @elia @freemo

As I said in another post the president of the Italian professional order of biologists claims that the Italian virus is different from the Chinese one and it originated from Italian zootechnical industry (animal farming).

So the discussion is still open.

@post @elia @freemo I'm going to have to apologize for my rudeness but that toot is retarded and I am dumber for reading it