@rbe_expert @don then why don't you support Ukrainian people, but instead you seem to support a fascist state engaged in war crines and genocide? Because ... capitalism... yeah, right. Useful idiot indeed.
@extrn@qoto.org What determines what state is "fascist" and what state isn't? If Russia wasn't "fascist", would that change your opinion of things? @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert there's a definition (several in fact) of fascism. You can look for traits that are present in all fascist states. For example:
- ultranazionalism
- cult to the "glorious past"
- identifyjng varius groups as "enemies of the people".
- taking the voice of "the people": saying what "the people" like or don't like, what they want or don't want, imposing your view on how the society should be organized - because you supposedly speak with "the people's voice"...
There are a bunch of other signs as well. Look it up somewhere. ruZZia is clearly a fascist state right now.
@extrn@qoto.org These seem like pretty vague and ambiguous "traits" that could ulteriorly be applied to many states irrespective of political and/or economic/socioeconomic organization. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert you can start educating yoursef here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
@extrn@qoto.org You do realize that entire page speaks about how ethereal the concept of "fascism" itself is, with many different groups having many different definitions---it's anything but concrete or objective. The article even begins with a quote from a historian saying:
trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall
You just did an internet search for the Wikipedia article to link without even looking at it yourself, I assume? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social@adiz @don @rbe_expert I've read the page some time ago, when I was interested in it. So, in your oppinion because there are many definitions of something means that something does not exist? Fine. Replace fascism with a long list of verifiable wrongs and crimes ruZZia has done... I already said I don't care for labels. The labes are just shortcuts.
@extrn@qoto.org Okay, excellent, so you finally answered my core question originally:
If Russia wasn't "fascist", would that change your opinion of things?
So, I assume the answer, then, is "no"? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social@adiz @don @rbe_expert I don't understand what it means ruZZia not being fascist. RuZZia has killed innocent civilians in Ukraine, has bombed shelters, schools, kindergardens and hospitals. Has destroyed civil infrastructure, has deported children from the occupied territories, has killed and raped and tortured prisoners. Has burned Ukrainian textbooks and has prosecuted ukrainian teachers. Has turned on its own citizen, sending them into prison for long time for even a minor critique of the war (which they officially refuse to call "war")... The ruZZian big bussiness is divided by several oligarchs - friends of tzar putler... In my oppinion all this is evil motivated by personal greed and vanity of the tzar... By his dreams of a great empire full of serfs... So I don't understand the question. What is supposed to not be true?
@extrn@qoto.org I asked, regardless of your hangup on "fascism", if this was being done by any other country than Russia (or, if Russia wasn't "fascist", as you claim [whatever that means, it does not matter]), would you feel so similarly? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert I haven't even started yet with all the ruZZian crimes of the last 50 years. The most awful crime IMNSHO is the disregard of the individual. Treating their own people like meat that exists only for the sake of advancing the goals of the tzar. This absolutist mentality was erradicated in the west a long time ago. So I can see North Korea or China very well in this role. US had done some pretty outrageous things in Latin America and the Middle East. Britain in the past too. But you are not going to turn full ruZZian troll here asking: "And what about..."? Right? That's not an afgument at all. putler has destroyed the European security architecture existing since the ww2 and I, as an European and a citizen of a country, that's a victim of the ruZZian imperialism will not play with hypotheticals in my ivory tower while there is an acive ruZZian plot to destabilize my own country and enslave me and my family. Fuck ruZZia, fuck putler, prigozin and the whole Kremlin. Let tgem burn!
@extrn@qoto.org So, this all really just comes down to the fact that you hate Russia/Russians and are a Eurocentric chauvinist? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert not at all. I would feel the same about any country killing people that want to be free. It just so happens that I have a particulary long history with ruZZia an md ruZZian lies
@extrn@qoto.org What do you think should be done to a country like Russia for what they're doing? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Nothing *should* be done to a country. The tzar will fall off a window when they lose the war. There will be a brief struggle between the oligarchs (because in their authoritarian government there are no rules of succession) and then a fission process will occur, splitting Chechnia and other parst of ruZZia. It is possible China to take Siberia. So what they deserve will happen all by itself. What should be done is just one thing - help them lose the war
@extrn@qoto.org When do you imagine all of this will happen? @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert It depends on the western support for Ukraine. The west has been very shy in that support. It is telling when you review the support by % of GDP: the former eastern bloc leads: All small countries that know what to expect from the empire. Meanwhile the likes of Macron and Sholtz are playing politics an "talking on the phone" and "keeping the channels open". Clowns. US has their own reasons for their support - they already carried the burden of one cold war - perhaps they don't want another.
@extrn@qoto.org I wouldn't exactly call the support "shy"---the United States has spent more on Ukraine in a year than they did over a decade in their war against Afghanistan. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert USA still refuse to provide more effective weapons like ATACMS. Ukraine needs also abilities to hit deep inside ruZZian territory: to destroy airstrips for strategic bombers and training centers.
@extrn@qoto.org I don't want America to provide more money and weapons to Ukraine. I'm already upset that America has spent the amount of tax dollars on some corrupt Eastern European rotating-puppet-state that they have. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert And what state that will be? And if you don't do it now, eventually you'll have to do it - just like in WW2. And it will be much more expensive. I think the american administration understands this very well, but they move slowly because of politics - both internal and international.
@extrn@qoto.org I don't think we will have to do anything at all. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Not helping Ukraine means ruZZia taking it. Then Moldova. Increasing their influence. Getting cocky. Starting shit in US (Trump). It is vastly more expensive than just proving them wrong right in the spot of their first transgression. (not that it's their first - they already escalated from human rights issues in the 2000s to the war with Georgia, to the poisonings on western soil, to annexations of Crimea and starting shit in Donbas, to elections interference in US and otger countries...). Much cheaper to kill 500000 orcs and be done with it.
@extrn@qoto.org We aren't taking anything. Pretty racist of you to refer to Slavic people's as "orcs". You're clearly a typical European supremacist. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert I do not refer to slavic people as orcs. I'm slavic people... :) ruZZian rapists in Ukraine are orcs. Ask anyone ghat cares. .
@extrn @adiz @don From my perspective as a Marxist this whole war is a huge tragedy that didn't need to happen if the USSR's regime had not been revisionist Stalinists who decided to undemocratically dissolve itself to allow its bureaucracy to profit off of privatization. The Ukraine War is the result of capitalist imperialism of NATO / the West seeking to assimilate Russia and then China into its territory and control to protect itself against collapse.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don So NATO started the war... Diesn't strike me as something a sane person would say....
@extrn@qoto.org Gee, I don't know, it's not like there was a CIA sponsored coup that toppled the pro-Russian government in 2014 and installed a radically pro-Western regime which purged the officer corps, immediately began antagonisms on the Eastern borders, and destroyed decades of Ukrainian-Russian cooperation or anything. @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert dou you have any evidence? Because of experience I can tell you it is far more likely the educated Ukrainians living in big cities envisioned themselves as part of Europe with freedom to go wherever they like, work whatever they want and live their lives as they please, than deciding to join an authoritarian pigsty.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don who are "they"? And solution to what? And do yoj have any evidence? Because I can tell you - nobody needs to foment anything with me - the moment the orcs try to take my freedom they'll die
@rbe_expert @adiz @don these are people that do not want to have their lifes stollen by a dictatorship. I tell you - no sane person who lived in eastern Europe will ever want to join ruZZian sphere of influence.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don old regime was also fond of snipers killing protesters as far as I remember. I also remember poisoning politicians... And if you want to see what Ukraine would have been now, look no further than Belarus. I don't know why you are so drawn to dictators. Why don't you go to live there? It is easy recommending "workers" do it, why don't you give an example? You are too comfortable enjoying the freedom of the west, while talking shit about it... I believe Popper concluded you should not be given that opportunity... So just go ti ruZZia or Noth Korea to educate tha "workers" 🤡🤡🤡
@rbe_expert @adiz @don dead bodies
@extrn@qoto.org Evidence of dead bodies? @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert so you lost the ability to google?
@adiz @don @rbe_expert is there any evidence marxism can exist IRL?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don haha and we know how well that went...
@rbe_expert @adiz @don wasn't this during the Yanukovich betrayal that forced the riots?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don because the traitor broke the negotiations with EU and moved swiftly to ruZZia... why didn't he wait for elections? You are too appologetic of dictators. Are you sure you are marxist? You look like a putler shill
@extrn@qoto.org Ukraine was already geopolitically aligned with Russia. So, if you brand someone a "traitor" and muddy the waters with prerogatives then it's okay to throw a violent coup and overthrow a stable government (assuming it's backed by and beneficial to Western interests)? Funny how these "rules" work! 🥴 @rbe_expert@mastodon.social @don@liberdon.com
@adiz @don @rbe_expert Bullshit. Ukraine was in negotiations for integration with EU. That's what the people expected and I'd be shocked to learn putler didn't know.
@extrn@qoto.org You are just going to make up whatever "rules" or justifications or excuses you need to keep your viewpoint on the "win". You've moved goalposts across this playing field so many times the grass has muddied. You really have zero foundation. Discussing things with you is like "pulling teeth", or akin to negotiating with a toddler. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert again bullshit. The negotiations with EU were actually complete. Just a few days before sighing Yanukovich turned to putler. How that sounds to you? ... speaking of toddlers... "the capitalist media" excuse is so deeply integrated in your mind that you refuse to see even basic facts. Putler tried to grab Ukraine. He failed, so he startrd a war. Grow up!
@adiz @don @rbe_expert again bullshit. The negotiations with EU were actually complete. Just a few days before sighing Yanukovich turned to putler. How that sounds to you? ... speaking of toddlers... "the capitalist media" excuse is so deeply integrated in your mind that you refuse to see even basic facts. Putler tried to grab Ukraine. He failed, so he startrd a war. Grow up!
@adiz @don @rbe_expert again bullshit. The negotiations with EU were actually complete. Just a few days before sighing Yanukovich turned to putler. How that sounds to you? ... speaking of toddlers... "the capitalist media" excuse is so deeply integrated in your mind that you refuse to see even basic facts. Putler tried to grab Ukraine. He failed, so he startrd a war. Grow up!
@adiz @don @rbe_expert again bullshit. The negotiations with EU were actually complete. Just a few days before sighing Yanukovich turned to putler. How that sounds to you? ... speaking of toddlers... "the capitalist media" excuse is so deeply integrated in your mind that you refuse to see even basic facts. Putler tried to grab Ukraine. He failed, so he startrd a war. Grow up!
@extrn@qoto.org I'm not going to discuss anything further. You refuse to accept any level playing field for conversation. You won't make any concessions. You outright refused to even consider any equivalency or equality in geopolitical parallels. You won't accept anything that grains against the blinders you've installed on yourself. There is no point in conversing with a fanatic. @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social
@adiz @don @rbe_expert At what point you were "discussing"? You resoned from the position of the invisible purple unicorn.... Putler is a dictator and terrorist. You don't agree? Fine - you can d go to Muhosransk to grow turnips in a comune 🤡 I am not going to accept the point of view of murderers and terrorists. I know too well the likes of you FROM EXPERIENCE in real life!
@rbe_expert @adiz @don because from the point of view of the individual ("worker") it matters very much on which side of the border they'll happen to end. I'm not going to accept any concessions to terrorists and murderers. For you, it seems, the individual happiness has no meaning and these struggles are just a meaningless distraction from the grand fight against capitalism... It all very conveniently coincides with positions of dictators and terrorists: "it all does not matter, as long as there is capitalist oppression"... It is a stupid, fanatical point. Not all evils are equal... some are more equal (if you allow me the reference).
@extrn @adiz @don No, once the US/ NATO gets full hegemony over the world and there is no opposing country, not even China, the inner logic of capitalism (endless profit maximization wherever it can be found) will FORCE the authority structures to clamp tighter and tighter on the people. It doesn't matter if it's Russian capitalism or Western capitalism, it tends toward the same dystopia.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don you have zero evidence for this.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don you seem to think in conspiracies and "elites" and other scarecrows :) It is not like this. There are many agents that influence the society - not just some nefarious capitalist organization.
@extrn @adiz @don You seem unaware of how many people die every year under so-called "enlightened", "peaceful", "relaxed" Western capitalism. Let me help you understand the brutality:
https://youtu.be/ClLKm8Q8Pns
@rbe_expert @adiz @don conspiracy is strong with you. Aren't you familiar with the propaganda model (Chomsky)? It is not all conspiracies of nefarious organizations
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Read "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined". It may change your catastrophic views.
@extrn @adiz @don Has been debunked.
https://youtu.be/fo2gwS4VpHc
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Before unlearning economics, you should learn some. Better yet, use it in practice. You may find it more enjoyable than arguing from the height of your ivory tower.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don that's just in USA. It'a not the whole world. USA has these backward notions regarding healthcare and education...
@extrn @adiz @don The reason we have these backward notions is because we spend all our money on military to dominate other countries and put down socialist notions everywhere else in the world, and we make sure we can do this by radicalizing our people with extreme right-wing propaganda and nationalism so they won't question whether capitalism is the reason everything sucks.
@rbe_expert @adiz @don You look radicalized by extreme marx-wing propaganda. Yet you are not in prison, you are free to spread your kind of propaganda in direct aid to foreign powers. That suggests there are some degrees of freedom that you enjoy. I bet that nothing stops you from buying a few hectares of land in Montana to create a commune where you can try marxism in practice...
@rbe_expert @extrn @adiz Stalin was annihilating more people per week, than capitalists all over the history
@rbe_expert @don @adiz You are like a parrot repeating propaganda but you don't have a standing - you argue from the position of the invisible purple unicorn. Show me a marxist state, so I can show you the camps, the murderous militia, the ideologically loaded decisions that lead to disasters.... It has been done many times with awful consequences. How many milions did Mao kill (with hunger!!) because of his stupid policies? And what is your counter? "capitalists don't give free money so people are dying"?
@extrn @don @adiz You are arguing from the position of the aristocrat 100 years before the first instance of a modern democracy, who demands "Show me an example of a democracy that has ever worked. You can't! They've all come under the rule of tyrants! We must continue to be ruled by philosopher-kings, for the good of all!"
@rbe_expert @don @adiz It doesn't matter what I allow or not. Existence is not subjective. There are deep problems with marxism and it goes contrary to human nature.
@rbe_expert @don @adiz as I said, complex systems can only evolve. They don't come by via catastrophic changes. Capitalism is a much safer bet than some bloody marxist coup that will leave the society in ruins. Just look at ruZZia...
@rbe_expert @adiz @don histerical propaganda
@rbe_expert @adiz @don I have lived under socialism (in a marxist state) and have lived under democracy. What have you done and what basis do you have to compare? Some propaganda video on youtube?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don Has anyone ever?
@rbe_expert @adiz @don you dream of utopias and complain how real-world systems are not perfect. Where is your working system? Some people tried it. Several times. They all failed miserably. Sure you would have done it better 🤡
@extrn@qoto.org No, you're just being cheeky about this stuff when arguments are made to you. So, I can do the same! @don@liberdon.com @rbe_expert@mastodon.social