@freemo @icedquinn @10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast

Libertarian positions, and probably the party, have failed to take hold for similar reasons, IMHO. There are practical constructs that don't translate easily to application of ideological theories. But it's because of the black and white spectrum applied, without understanding that practical constructs are less transitory than would be ideal.

If we all evolved from "drive at your own risk" start-points, odds are collision protection would have been market driven with much more force than top speed or fuel efficiency. Could it "work?" Maybe. Would it be better? Who knows, impossible to even theorize, because it's over a hundred years of market evolution and social infrastructure that would have been driven by completely different forces. Can we just "flip a switch" and pretend we evolved in a different timeline, NO. So, libertarian theory applied completely, immediately and without regard to modern constructs is a failure out of the gate, on things like driving.

The flaw in the philosophical position applied to an artificial construct does not prove the philosophy is entirely flawed. I get the counter-point, being a "libertarian" doesn't automatically raise your IQ, you can still be stupid. I was a member of the party once, on my voting record, I stopped filling in any party affiliations though, because they are all stupid.

What's difficult is getting the "average person" to even realize how much of the every day world is a complete artificial construct. The libertarian position that seems to raise it's head, sometimes seems far more extreme than a rational anarchist.

As I've got older, I've started to look more at scale, and less at policy. People naturally gather, and are "pack animals" that seem highly social. They cluster, and form groups, on their own. We "self assemble" into more complex and larger structures. That's nature. However, I've started to see, tribal is better than "one world" viewpoints. There are some magic numbers, 100 is one, groups over over 100 (70 to 300, ballpark, it's not magic) start to loose efficiency and become unpleasant. Over 100, it's typically better to have a second, competitive group.

However, there are undeniable somewhat consistent, such as health care, general infrastructure, that benefit from structure. And it all falls apart when you try to get infrastructure directed by "politicians" and a "government" becomes involved. I don't care what anyone tries to argue, if the CDC, Research Grant Funding, Insurance industry, and all the needless bureaucracy were eliminated from healthcare, and restructured in a more efficient, self regulated, easily replicated (competition), way, I'd be for PUBLIC (community) funding of health care, which is very non-libertarian, but very logically consistent IMHO, with a more "natural" method of living and developing as a society.

I don't know what the fuck I am, other than someone not fond of labels. I am not a member of the Libertarian party, although I see their point of view, and acknowledge it has some fundamental positions that are generally well intended. But I think they are idiots on a lot of shit to, so, yes, I guess that's a very long winded way of agreeing...

The false dilemma of a two party system that has caused the mass corruption that has become a fatal cancer on the USA. Because of that, I have a hard time forgiving any 3rd party for not trying to point out the harmful conditions created, that the every day world is a complete artificial construct, and it should be restructured. Bring up a radically different viewpoint is good, but they all seem to take it to some extreme, making it less practical than the broken system we live in (which is such massive scale oppression on humanity the likes of which the world has never seen before).

@freemo @Coyote @icedquinn @10grans @PestToast I actually agree with you here, Decentralization and local governance is what is needed. Fundamentally the powers and responsibility's of any state needs to be broken up and reorganized. From who and what kind of taxation is aloud, to local infrastructure.