@icedquinn

As a libertarian myself I second that!

@10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast @Coyote

@icedquinn @freemo @10grans @Coyote @PestToast The problem with libertarians is those marketing it. They are their own worst enemy's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Nad1b_3yY

@Atlas_Khan libertarianism is a principled thing. this means you have to defend violations of principle regardless of shitlib optics.

@10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo

@icedquinn @10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo sure but still. Like the retards who show up to anti mask rallys wearing nazi gear, it just gets embarrassing sometimes. Im not against Libertarians, I value freedom above all, its just cringe some times

@Atlas_Khan the whole game of 202X liberalism is about framing their position with optics so they can shame anyone who disagrees with it. that’s it. and they learned from 2010s and 2000s neoliberals this tactic works very well (people will do anything if you tell them its for their kids —hitler)

this is why i now say beware anyone who is trying to sound reasonable because it may very well be a consent trap.

for example the reason the forefathers wrote down keep and bear arms shall not be infringed is they literally already sat through generations of government disarming the populace through bullshit and even in our countries lifetime they tried to find loopholes to disarm black people etc.

frame the argument in such a way that disagreeing has poor optics and then run shame games on them for bad decorum or bad taste etc.

i mean.. read up on sales tactics. it always starts with “getting to yes.”

@10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo

@icedquinn @10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo sure sure. Its still silly when guys talk about how Meth should be able to be bought and sold to anyone or that AOC is just opressive

@Atlas_Khan why should a person not be able to spend their private capital buying methamphetamines if they are innocent until proven guilty

@10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo

@Atlas_Khan

because they'll abuse it

substance restrictions pre-suppose guilt. you are literally guilty by default and thus have restrictions imposed on you.

because its bad for them

so are many not-banned substances, and libertarian government is not responsible for your health you are.

etc

@10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo

@10grans @Atlas_Khan @Coyote @PestToast @freemo but yeah i don't know how we get any actual police reform through. burning cities is kind of against the NAP but it seems to be the only thing the government listens to.

@icedquinn @10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast @freemo

"but yeah i don't know how we get any actual police reform through. burning cities is kind of against the NAP but it seems to be the only thing the government listens to."

Queue guy with links... what's his name, doctor bald with white beard that told me about Karl Hess? (or a fucking black panther, or both, i don't know)... It starts with unconditional love to our children, and teaching them survival skills, logic and math. Without knowing both truth, and love, our children will all kill each other.

All the police violence is reinforcement of laws that are artificial ultimatums on society by power grabbing politicians, enforced with militant tactics, to achieve more power.

Bring back the Didactic method, bring back the town halls, let the people find solutions face to face, child to child, parent to parent, without profiteering power-grabing politicians.

The political narrative has been hijacked by the wealthy technocrats since Gutenberg, it's been an arms race for knowledge and truth.

And the solution is so simple, our genetic drive has caused it to begin on it's own, decentralized platforms for free speech again, understanding of ideas, confrontation of differing ideologies between people they effect, without profiteering politicians taking their berocratic entitlements out of the discussions to feed their egos and wallets.

What? Yea, overfund the police, they have a lot to learn, they need an education... ?

@Coyote they're also overmilitarized as a matter of policy. SWAT trains with Navy SEALs and military attachments that's missions are search and destroy, not peacekeeping.

@10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast @freemo

@icedquinn @10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo I adovacte for dectrilized Government, maybe another time but I don't want to argue why or why not a drug should be eligal to use own or sell

@icedquinn @10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo Society existence would presume some Republic standards, I don't advocate for TOTAL decimalization of all drugs.

@Atlas_Khan just depends what kind of state you want to be.

duty ethics require upholding the duty regardless of optics but opponents in a democracy can always use shitty optics tricks to get footholds (say its for the children) and incrementalism from there on out.

a lot of the US' problems are because judges weren't willing to uphold ethics and instead let motivated reasoning make their judgements. ex. they caved to optics.

@Coyote @PestToast @freemo

@Atlas_Khan @Coyote @PestToast @freemo as for specifically getting police reform through (ex. changing tasers in such a way they stop "accidentally" murdering people with pistols) i haven't a clue.

the libertarian angles have not been effective.

BLM's burning cities has been kind of effective at getting police funding cut. Which doesn't help though.

@icedquinn @Coyote @PestToast @freemo If you want to minimize police violence, minimize police interactions. Floyed should not of been arrested over a fucking fake 20

@Atlas_Khan Disco Elysium had the somewhat amusing thing of "oh we don't really arrest people, we just give them summoning slips and they arrest themselves "

@Coyote @PestToast @freemo

@icedquinn @Coyote @PestToast @freemo Yes actually, thats a thing libertarian's advocate for, If someone does not show up to a court date. Then arrest or send bounty hunters against them. Minimize police interactions. They should not be a daily occurrence

@Atlas_Khan @Coyote @PestToast @freemo i can see how issuing a summons is more dignified. plus you can, as they suggested in the game, weaponise whether they do or do not show up as a piece of evidence of whether the person is generally responsible or not.

@icedquinn @Coyote @PestToast @freemo Its a game don't forget and they had an agenda to push, it seems like a much less conflict oriented way of dealing with crime then arrest. its a branch of good fences make good neighbors. Minimize police conflict by minimizing police interaction.

@Atlas_Khan @icedquinn @PestToast @freemo

"Floyed should not of been arrested over a fucking fake 20"

Ah, but you took away America's guns, that's how liberals "escalate" problems .... Gotta have the rule enforcers out, they gotta do the job we justify taking your taxes for... how else ya gonna do it?

Oh, and vote democratic, Trumps a racist, he's the reason it happened... Pay your taxes.

@Atlas_Khan @10grans @Coyote @PestToast @freemo to bring it back on topic, even the foyd shit is the same playbook. it's framed such that if you disagree with them, you're a white supremacist nazi who hates blacks. therefore nobody is willing to say "huh, maybe actually he's just a drughead who killed himself with a superball."

except, y'know, some people do. but then they have to deal with the optics shit.

@Atlas_Khan @icedquinn @10grans @PestToast @freemo Sometimes the world lacks the sense of humor it needs to just laugh when an idiot falls down, not try to pass a new law to prevent it.

@Coyote @10grans @PestToast @freemo @icedquinn

ITS JUST A PRANK-Hitler 1944

@Atlas_Khan

There is no shortage of hardcore libertarians who go to idiotic extremes.

@icedquinn @10grans @PestToast @Coyote

@Atlas_Khan @icedquinn @10grans @PestToast @freemo @Coyote Those aren't marketers booing. Those are the Autistic Masses booing.

They are also the shameful Leftist anti racists claiming Libertarian principles now

@MSP_SMIMSA @icedquinn @10grans @PestToast @freemo @Coyote No true Scotsman

@Atlas_Khan @icedquinn @10grans @PestToast @freemo @Coyote

But one real retard

@Atlas_Khan @icedquinn @10grans @PestToast @freemo

Counterpoint https://youtu.be/W1xmGK8PEJw

@Coyote

Counter counter point.. As a strong libertarian myself I am ashamed of the majority of libertarians.. they take it too far to the point of anarchy rather than just localized government.

See the following youtube video of the actual libertarian primaries where Greg Johnson (who won thankfully) debated with the other top choices.. Everyone but Greg Johnson is entierly cringe worthy here.

I am a strong libertarian in terms of my ideas, but I dont like most of the high ups in the party itself. Thankfully the one who tends to win the primaries is often more moderate and worthy of supporting.

https://youtu.be/ZITP93pqtdQ

@icedquinn @10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast

@freemo @icedquinn @10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast

Libertarian positions, and probably the party, have failed to take hold for similar reasons, IMHO. There are practical constructs that don't translate easily to application of ideological theories. But it's because of the black and white spectrum applied, without understanding that practical constructs are less transitory than would be ideal.

If we all evolved from "drive at your own risk" start-points, odds are collision protection would have been market driven with much more force than top speed or fuel efficiency. Could it "work?" Maybe. Would it be better? Who knows, impossible to even theorize, because it's over a hundred years of market evolution and social infrastructure that would have been driven by completely different forces. Can we just "flip a switch" and pretend we evolved in a different timeline, NO. So, libertarian theory applied completely, immediately and without regard to modern constructs is a failure out of the gate, on things like driving.

The flaw in the philosophical position applied to an artificial construct does not prove the philosophy is entirely flawed. I get the counter-point, being a "libertarian" doesn't automatically raise your IQ, you can still be stupid. I was a member of the party once, on my voting record, I stopped filling in any party affiliations though, because they are all stupid.

What's difficult is getting the "average person" to even realize how much of the every day world is a complete artificial construct. The libertarian position that seems to raise it's head, sometimes seems far more extreme than a rational anarchist.

As I've got older, I've started to look more at scale, and less at policy. People naturally gather, and are "pack animals" that seem highly social. They cluster, and form groups, on their own. We "self assemble" into more complex and larger structures. That's nature. However, I've started to see, tribal is better than "one world" viewpoints. There are some magic numbers, 100 is one, groups over over 100 (70 to 300, ballpark, it's not magic) start to loose efficiency and become unpleasant. Over 100, it's typically better to have a second, competitive group.

However, there are undeniable somewhat consistent, such as health care, general infrastructure, that benefit from structure. And it all falls apart when you try to get infrastructure directed by "politicians" and a "government" becomes involved. I don't care what anyone tries to argue, if the CDC, Research Grant Funding, Insurance industry, and all the needless bureaucracy were eliminated from healthcare, and restructured in a more efficient, self regulated, easily replicated (competition), way, I'd be for PUBLIC (community) funding of health care, which is very non-libertarian, but very logically consistent IMHO, with a more "natural" method of living and developing as a society.

I don't know what the fuck I am, other than someone not fond of labels. I am not a member of the Libertarian party, although I see their point of view, and acknowledge it has some fundamental positions that are generally well intended. But I think they are idiots on a lot of shit to, so, yes, I guess that's a very long winded way of agreeing...

The false dilemma of a two party system that has caused the mass corruption that has become a fatal cancer on the USA. Because of that, I have a hard time forgiving any 3rd party for not trying to point out the harmful conditions created, that the every day world is a complete artificial construct, and it should be restructured. Bring up a radically different viewpoint is good, but they all seem to take it to some extreme, making it less practical than the broken system we live in (which is such massive scale oppression on humanity the likes of which the world has never seen before).

@freemo @Atlas_Khan @PestToast @icedquinn

I'm always shocked when someone actually reads my rants. Half the time I change my mind mid-sentence, and it's almost unreadable. So, I guess thank you to anyone who bothers.. I'm talking out of my ass half the time on fedi (and half the time I don't even believe myself, and construct an idea just to see if it will stand up on it's own, or be torn down easily by others).

@10grans makeitrain 0.01

@Coyote, you have tipped each of @icedquinn, @Atlas_Khan, @PestToast, @freemo 0.0025 .

@10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast @freemo @icedquinn

Oh shit, that was supposed to be directed at @StampedingLonghorn

@10grans tip 0.005 to @StampedingLonghorn

@Coyote @10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast @StampedingLonghorn @freemo

@freemo @Coyote @icedquinn @10grans @PestToast I actually agree with you here, Decentralization and local governance is what is needed. Fundamentally the powers and responsibility's of any state needs to be broken up and reorganized. From who and what kind of taxation is aloud, to local infrastructure.

@Coyote @10grans @PestToast @freemo @icedquinn Penn became cringe when trump became a politician. He plays the political theater game like everyone ( P and T bs was a great show though)

@icedquinn @10grans @Atlas_Khan @PestToast @freemo @Coyote Sorry, what is the full name of your Religion?