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This in your profile made me curious:
"Pro-Democracy. Pro-Rights. Pro-Freedom. In that order."
So if it is democratically decided to abolish fundemental rights, you would support it since democracy is more important than rights?
Not trying to give you a hard time, just a fair question about your stance.
@icedquinn ::Salutes::
The entire point of civilization is to give up certain rights for the good of society. We decide to implement a policy like "this is the speed limit" - and you give up your right to violate that policy. Democracy is just how we are supposed to decide things - in our case, by electing representatives to govern.
If you don't like the decisions - you work within the system to change them, or potentially you leave for someplace with different policies.
Depends on how you use "rights" I suppose.. in its more general usage you are correct.. but more typically its used to mean natural human rights.. which is a specific set of rights that many hold to be sacred.
equal rights belong exclusively to individuals. all rights rest upon the ability to say "no" and have that respected without reprisal. otherwise consent is impossible. fundamentally, to respect the word no is the first mutual agreement which must precede all others.
since an individual cannot delegate a right they do not possess, a group can no more rightly supersede or abrogate the rights of the individual (save to protect another from such a violation), lest the foundation of society rest upon coercion rather than liberty.
following that there's the question of tension between private ownership vs perceived public need. now if you put our society in view of that lens, you'll start to see how things go off the rails. in the typical western democratic models we try to make the end justify the means by extorting our way to philanthropy, euphemizing it as taxation.
yet to correct course would start as simply as replacing taxation with voluntary crowd-funding. there would be some growing pains at first, but I'm sure we could adjust without major calamity. anyway I think that would make the powers that be a lot less prone to corruption and waste, if people simply had the ability to say "no" and choose a different provider. if people understood that saying "no" is the fundamental basis of their rights.
@toiletpaper @freemo @LouisIngenthron
By this reasoning - if I don't like the speed limit, I can just say "no" and ignore it?
When we live in civilization, we give up the ability to do whatever we want; it is the price you pay to participate. I can't just drive 90 mph on a residential street without breaking the law and expecting to be punished for it - and that's good. Anyone who thinks "rights" means "I can do whatever I want in all circumstances without cpersonal consequences" is using a very non-standard meaning and is being disingenuous. That's not rights - it's anarchy.
Sure you could just say no and ignore it... its just, there are consequences :)
https://wtf.tw/ref/ostrom_1990.pdf
a historical aside: many of the rights you take for granted were won by anarchists at various periods of history, including your contemporary use of computing devices and the internet (incl. fedi). democracy itself was equated with anarchy by plato, and it was anarchists who pioneered many variants of democratic process still in use today by field testing them in their workers collectives.
https://libcom.org/files/LeonardIKrimerman-LewisPerry_PatternsOfAnarchyACollectionOfWritingsOnTheAnarchistTradition_1966_594pp.pdf
http://www.ditext.com/woodcock/anarch.html
https://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/67479457/the-internets-first-anarchist
https://www.hughrundle.net/home-invasion/
trivia: the circle around the A in the Ⓐ symbol represents the O in the word Order. Ⓐnarchism is Ⓐrder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_order
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnarchyIsChaos
@toiletpaper @freemo @LouisIngenthron
I'm entirely unconvinced that most human beings, without some sort of compulsory framework, will do the right thing - simply because history, especially recent history, has given us so many spectacular counter examples. Argue philosophy all you want, but when it comes down to it unless we stop them, we repeatedly screw over others for profit or convenience or sheer bloody-mindedness. As they say - every consumer protection law was written in blood.
@Biggles @toiletpaper @freemo @LouisIngenthron I don't know that is both universal and true throughout human history. I think it becomes a lot easier when we live in larger and larger social groups. Then you can ignore the humanity of the people you are scamming, because you never have to see the consequences. Few people aggressively and voluntarily screw over their family members, for example. A huge part of humans' evolutionary fitness, with our soft hides, lack of claws, and totally helpless offspring, is our cooperativeness. Without it, our brains could never have grown so large in the first place.
@freemo @toiletpaper @Adrasteianix @LouisIngenthron
It may well not have been true at the village level in the distant past when everyone you ever interacted with lived in your monkey sphere. But - I don't live 800 years in the past. Which is good, I like medicine and cheeseburgers, and I like the fact that people I don't know and have never met can mostly be trusted for both of those because we don't just let people do anything they want. The minimal loss of freedom seems an excellent trade-off for the safety and prosperity we gain.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/15/liberty-fist-nose/
in essence I feel this simple notion forms the underlying precept for devising things like speed limits, and so on. rights are mutual agreements/consent to avoid violent action and needless harm. when rights are breached, that becomes a far more likely outcome. so there is mutual self-interest in agreeing to abide by the obligations/taboos implied by our rights. if you read that elinor ostrom link I pasted she distills a lot of this down to basic points, albeit in an economic rather than human rights context (though it's a dense read unless you like econ+game theory). not that these things are without their challenges. one of the case studies in that book is the aquifers in california, which are in the news again recently for the same issues she described.
@Biggles @freemo @Adrasteianix @LouisIngenthron
Do you agree this new tax law?
Everyone whose username begins with "L" will be taxed at 100% of wealth and earnings and the proceeds of the tax will be evenly distributed to everyone in this thread.
@Pat @Biggles @freemo @Adrasteianix Any reasonable person would understand why that's an unjust law and vote against it, even if doing so would be against their own best interests.
The goal, then, is for a society to consistently produce and select new generations who are more reasonable than selfish.
Obviously, that tends to work better with larger sample sizes and lower margins of error, but we'll see if this poll can end up demonstrating my point anyway...
All I heard was free money, Im in!!! Besides fuck those L-named haters, what have tthey ever done for me! They only look out for their own interests.
@Adrasteianix @Pat @freemo @LouisIngenthron
It's also worth noting that democracy doesn't exist in a vacuum - indeed, one of the first things the US founding fathers did was the Bill of Rights, precisely to set expectations and prevent abuses.
The original assertion was overly simplistic - in reality, democracy and rights and laws have feedback loops and influence each other in both directions. There is no absolute hierarchy - nor I think would we really want one.
It's a rhetorical poll. I'm not actually expecting responses. The point is, that putting democracy ahead of rights exposes people to dogpiling. Assuming that people will always vote against their own personal self-interest and choose what's best for the common good, is to expect people to be angels. If all people were angels, no government would be needed (paraphrasing Madison).
Governments need to be designed to withstand the worst of human nature, because at times people can get really evil. (Here in the US, we just had a few people in the CDC kill over a million Americans, for greed, power or who knows why).
>"The goal, then, is for a society to consistently produce and select new generations who are more reasonable than selfish."
A worthy goal, but I've never seen that happen in the real world. Natural selection in politics supports the opposite -- the most ruthless gain the power.
@Pat @LouisIngenthron @Biggles @Adrasteianix
A tyramny of the majority as the founding fathers put it.
@Pat @Biggles @freemo @Adrasteianix So your rhetorical poll that you weren't expecting responses to (despite having immediately voted yes on it yourself) didn't go the way you expected.
That's because of a simple miscalculation: I don't expect everyone to be angels all the time. I just expect at least half of people to not be complete shitheads when it counts.
I can't honestly say that those meager expectations have always been met in the past, but I think on a long enough timescale, this mechanism moves us slowly-but-surely in the right direction.
Sounds like something someone would say with a name that begins with L... Youve convinced me to change my vote, tax em!
@LouisIngenthron @Pat @Adrasteianix @freemo
Most people are good, or at least fair.
The laws protect us from the toxic minority who treat other people as marks, or prey, or as not human.
@Biggles Depends on where and when you are.. I would say in many places and at many times it has been the majority who is toxic.. the USA is an example with a toxic majority.
That said even the worst of people view themselves as good and intend to be good by their own personal skewed definition of good.
@freemo the US is under attack by fascists; the fact that they haven't won and our institutions hold is good evidence they're a loud minority. It's typical for the party in power to lose seats in the midterms - and the fact that it didn't happen is heartening. I truly believe we're suffering the last gasp of the old ways, and will come out of this stronger for having resisted it.
Sometimes it just takes time and effort to rouse good people from complacency.
@Biggles @Pat @Adrasteianix @freemo And the third category: those who tacitly participate in, and uphold, ongoing systemic harm because of ignorance and/or indifference.
I did not vote in the poll because it was a rhetorical poll. I don't know how many of the people in this thread are ignorant about the meaning of the word rhetorical, but of the remaining 5 people in this thread (besides myself), 7 of them voted.
Sounds like this little election was rhetorically stolen. 😂
>"but I would prefer to live in that situation over one where we still have rights but live under a dictator."
That statement is oxymoronic, because one who lives under a dictator does not retain their rights.
@Biggles @Adrasteianix @freemo
@toiletpaper That's nice in theory, but in practice, the world just isn't that simple.
How do you say "no" to someone polluting the river you depend on to live 500 miles upstream?
There are a lot of benefits to individualism; I'll give you that. But at some point, this rock will get crowded enough that we need to start thinking as a collective species.
@freemo I wouldn't support the abolition of rights, but I would prefer to live in that situation over one where we still have rights but live under a dictator. Mainly because I believe that a free and equal democracy provides the best chance for the restoration of rights when they are taken away.
In other words, I believe a true democracy lacking rights has a tendency to mend its attitude towards rights to appease voters.
Whereas in the flip side, an authoritarian regime with rights, those rights are likely on their way out.
So, that's why I see democracy as a foundation for equal rights: We the people demand them.
@LouisIngenthron That is an interesting take.. would you want to live under an ideal king, or an abusive democracy...
In the short term I think id prefer to live under an ideal king with generous and proper rights than an abusive democracy... that said this breaks down for me long term. The issue is eventually you have a new king, and he might be quite cruel and then your stuck. A democracy at least can adjust.
@freemo Exactly. Ultimately, this philosophy is likely rooted in my whole-hearted belief that "power corrupts". Even if we found someone venerated for peace and wisdom (i.e. Ghandi, Mother Theresa, etc.) and made them king of the world, I believe that power would corrupt them, as it would any man or woman.
That's the real beauty of democracy: It puts the most devastating power collectively in the hands of those who wield no power individually.
(Although, that's not to say the system is without its own flaws.)
@LouisIngenthron Ok then yea, if thats what you meant, sure, im willing to subscribe to your newsletter :)
@freemo @LouisIngenthron "an ideal king" - that's how democracies die. "A strong man to rectify what goes wrong" is a fallacy easily subscribed to, though. However, that's what every junta claims: to restore order and bring back rule to the people and relieve them from whatever oppression of the scapegoat-to-be. There exist zillions of such in history and many as-of-now on Earth and very few evidence to the contrary. NEVER trade freedom for security - or you will eventually loose both. There is no benevolent dictator.
@taz There's no perfect solution. But I'll take "the whims of the collective whole" over "the whims of a single individual" to determine which rights should be enforced by the state any day of the week.
@taz What happened since then proves my point. "The moral arc of the universe is long" and all that.
Reform doesn't happen overnight. It has to be preceded with changing public opinion, which comes with increasing education. As ignorance falls, tolerance spreads.
We now live in the information age. Ignorance is no longer an immutable question of upbringing; it's a choice. Do some still choose the creature comforts of seeking information that reinforces their biases? Sure. Such is the human condition.
But more and more people seem to be seeking to educate themselves and seek real justice. And I believe that, as information continues to proliferate and expand, along with our increased free time due to automation, that widespread desire for self-improvement will only accelerate.
@taz It literally did happen under my preferred system.
@taz Those courts only did so by interpreting laws put into place by the very system you so oppose.
USPOL
@taz So then you support those same courts taking away rights if they feel it just?
The courts overturned Roe. If a democratically-elected Congress passed a law protecting abortion rights, would you feel any differently about which power structure you prefer?
Also, it's worth noting that the courts don't have any interest in "protecting minorities". Their interest is in upholding laws. Period. When the law was that slaves were property, they upheld that.
Not until the democratic republic as a whole passed the 14th Amendment did they start, on its basis, enforcing "Equal Protection Under The Law"... an idea imposed by... "mob rule".
USPOL
@taz "Back in the states where it belongs"?
If we left civil rights to the states, black folks still wouldn't be able to vote in most of the south.
Why are you so confident in state legislatures to get the Roe question right, but believe that a small council of oligarchs should override the will of the masses at the federal level? How does that square up?
As for your claim that the 13th and 14th amendments weren't popular, then why did their predecessor, the Civil Rights Act of 1866, pass with such overwhelming support as to override a presidential veto? Especially following a period where the "mob" you so loathe *went to war* to defend the rights of others not to be enslaved.
