@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo CDC estimates that gang violence was responsible for 10% of overall homicides in 2020. So I think you need another excuse.

@freemo @pies @MelodyCooper I think you need to consider that even if you took away all gun violence the murder rate in the US would still be high, many times higher than most developed countries - guns are clearly very far from the main problem here. I’m trying really hard to be good faith and polite here, but I haven’t seen any sign of that from you whatsoever. I could point to any number of stats, but because any single one of them doesn’t account for the entire discrepancy it won’t matter to you, you’ll just jump to an entirely different subject or ignore it.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo Where are those stats then? You claim the reasons are different, and you keep moving the goalpost on that (so it's not gang violence after all?)

I'm curious to know what particular piece of data makes you so sure it's not the easy access to guns that's causing all those extra murders to happen.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And no, I'm not skipping around, or moving the goalpost. I'm talking about the reasons for US having so many more murders than any other rich country.

I do appreciate that US has many structural problems that may cause people to turn to violence, from prolific lack of access to basic necessities of life like health care and housing, to an incredibly harmful mass incarceration system you've built, to a lack of support for getting out of poverty that plagues vast swaths of US. I get that. And that's quite unusual for a rich country and I'm sure contributes to the problem. And if you had like 50% or even 100% more murders, I could buy that argument. But the disparity is much, much larger.

@freemo @pies @MelodyCooper Again, even without guns it’s over that line.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And what is the source for this assertion?

@MelodyCooper @freemo @pies Did you seriously think the entire difference was just in guns?

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo I still don't see any data or links.

@pies

I havent seen any valid data on the topic from either of you....

@zack @MelodyCooper

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Which one are you questioning? Murder rates, number of gang-related homicides, Swiss gun laws?

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

I didnt say i was questioning anything... but you two are both disagreeing with eachother and neither of you have provided any sort of high quality data to make either case.

So im just pointing out its kinda odd for you to complain he isnt providing data when you really havent done that yourself either.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper So my data is unspecifically invalid, gotcha.

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

No it is specifically.invalid and commented multiple times in the thread why every time you attempted to share invalid data

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Yeah, this kind of goes as expected :) Gun nuts ask for data, then they don't like the data, they have no data, and they keep believing. Well, I hope more people come to their senses, their democratic voice gets heard, and you fix your glaring problem so that gun nuts around here don't point to US and claim you're doing great despite the guns.

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

Sorry but you dont win science debates by seeing who can post the most intellectually dishonest links to data... not how honest scientific inquery works. The fact you think it does shows you are probably the only "nut" here. The fact you felt the need to make personally attacks to everyone who disagrees with you really proves it though

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Sure, that's the reason you haven't provided any data. That's the reason our conversation led nowhere. Well, good luck with your safety guns.

@pies

What assertion have I made havent provided data for? I have posted the data for pretty much all my assertions in the past, at least if/when someone brought it up.

@zack @MelodyCooper

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper You have not provided data for any of those assertions:

@pies

I sure have, probably 50 times over the years, and several times this month alone (as its been a significant topic)... I've addressed both why the data and science we have is lacking (on either side of the discussion).. why its bad approach to analysis and Data for whats out there, and likewise provided data nad charts from the data we have access to...

So yes I've shared the data to that, quite often and recently.. I guess what you meant to say is you never saw or asked me for data and now are upset because I called **you** out for not having data so now your diverting the spotlight and trying to make it sound like I refuse to provide data when I actually did? Umm ok, not a good look, but ok. But yea if you want to download the data with me and do the analysis I'll be happy to go through it with you step by step. Its on my timeline but we can process the data together if you'd like as well.

@zack @MelodyCooper

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Still the same :D No, I'm not changing the subject, I'm literally answering your question. And sure, let's say I also provided my data and sources elsewhere, so we can be done.

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

Lol no my dats was actually provided and you only asked for it once **you** were called out for not providing any.. sorry buddy but doesnt work that way. Youve provided no data, you dont get to act superior by imagining you did and then calling out others who actually did provide data and pretending they didnt.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Whatever I could provide you'll just say that I'm wrong and you don't have to provide any proof because you did before. What would be the point?

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper But sure, here you go, a list of studies linking number of guns to homicide rates. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

Let me guess, it doesn't prove causation, because it's a study.

@freemo @pies @MelodyCooper More like it isn’t conclusive science because there is no experiment to be done. But you could find a general direction with this kind of observational data, just be careful you might not like what other conclusions you could get with this kind of analysis.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo The other conclusion being that people started buying guns after all the knife shootings?

@MelodyCooper @freemo @pies Another conclusion, would be that maybe there’s more than one factor in this discussion. I know this might be a little sophisticated for a person like you, but there are a lot of differences between the US and Europe that extends past guns. Give that you weren’t aware that new SMGs aren’t legal to purchase in the US, you might also not be aware that different states have differing laws and general circumstances. For example, the Deep South has high rates of poverty - you can see large chunks of those states might not even have access to power. Is their rate of violent crime and murder due to guns or poverty? Yes, the United States are not totally uniform - which is important.

@zack @freemo @pies Just (reluctantly) jumping in here to say that the level of gun violence in the United States does have multiple factors affecting it, poverty being one. Hatred and irrational fears being another. The point is, when you have any of those factors in play and you add guns, it’s like adding a match to a powder keg. (The match being the gun). Why would you do that?

@MelodyCooper @zack @pies

I think everyone is in agreement that the violence in the usa is a multitude of factors of which any influence guns have is at best a small fraction. Of course i disagree that addi g guns is like adding a match, mutch the opposite its like untying peoples hands so they can act.

@freemo @MelodyCooper @zack No, I think guns play a major role in murder rate. They're not the only factor, obviously, but they're the big one.

@pies @MelodyCooper @zack

Then on that we agree, as I feel the evidence shows it strongly decreases the murder rate when having it present in a society with high murder rates. Though I suspect you think the opposite is true,

@freemo @MelodyCooper @zack I see no evidence that a lot of guns that people in US have lowers the murder rate there. Quite the opposite. You have a lot of guns and a lot of murders.

@pies @MelodyCooper @zack

Yes as i explained to you earlier why you were looking at the dats erroneously in the regard and how to correct it. Your incorrect approach of conflating correlation with causation from the start will usually lead to bad conclusions as it just did for you.

Woukd be happy to explore some valid analysis with you as I offered many times already. I suspect you arent arguing in good faith though.

@freemo @MelodyCooper @zack But causality does require correlation, doesn't it? And US demonstrably has a lot of guns and does not have a low murder rate. There is no reason to think a lot of guns lowers murder rates. There is a reason to think the opposite.

Just because you say something lots of times doesn’t make it reflective of reality. You’d make for a really shitty scientist. Why do Oregon and Utah have fewer murders per capita than California then? Both have more guns and fewer regulations on those guns - granted Oregon does have a measure that passed but hasn’t been implemented yet. Must be the guns dropping the murder rate, right? This is basically the same logic you’ve been using the entire time. Crime rate in general - including murder - in the US dropped around the time concealed carry started being allowed in more states. Maybe you don’t understand how data works, but your 2 variable bullshit won’t cut it.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo I guess Americans are just more hateful. Thank you for making that clear :)

@pies @freemo @MelodyCooper that’s a funny way to admit that you were talking out of your ass.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo So that's also not something you're saying? Feels like you guys just don't want to talk about why Americans murder each other so much. So it's not because you want to and not because you can. What is the reason for your murder rate again?

@pies

anyone who spent any real time and is honest with themselves in America knows exactly why the american murder rate is so high... when you are there it feels like visiting an insane asylum, the mental health issues are huge there and pervasive.

@zack @MelodyCooper