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Shout out to that time a long-time friend of a friend who always had a crush on me was devastated when I called her out (and ultimately cut her off) for hitting her child.
No one is going to beat their child in public and expect to not get an ear full out of me. I dont care who you are.
@freemo Shout-out for doing the right thing, facing punishment and staying true to yourself.
And in private doesn't make it less evil!
Some people have wondered why (for instance) Sweden had so few (until recently) murders, compared to (for instance) USA. I think part of it is that "disciplining children" (by physical or mental violence) has been denounced for many generations, and illegal since (I think) the 1960s.
Good communities start by stopping violence against children.
For sure, i would call it out in private too.. In this situation she had done it in public and a bunch of people int he resteraunt gave her shit.. she came to me to complain how she was "disiplining" her kid in public and how she got in trouble.... this was when i learned she hit her kid and i lost it. I didnt see the actual abuse, she was coming to me to tell me how she was "unfairly" criticized for hitting her kid. My response was "good, they should have criticized you, your lucky thats all they did, stop beating your child"
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist Was it a beating, or a spanking?
Does it matter? The long-term trauma in the child is not so much "amount of pain", but the betrayal of the parents, who are their only source of protection, love and comfort.
@niclas @AmpBenzScientist @freemo I get that to a degree, but I’d argue that something very small like a singular, relatively gentle smack on the hand of a small child isn’t anything to be particularly worried about, depending on how and why it’s done.
A gentle smack ont he hand that doesnt inflict much pain is a non issue.. I wouldnt even call that a spanking, thats just a gesture, I'd do that with my friend if he tried to steal my food :)
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist I would too, if I had better boundaries 😂
But I think that would be a spanking in its best form, IMHO.
For me to qualify as a beating (including spanking) it needs to inflict some level of pain and suffering as a learning tactic.. if its just physical contact but doesnt raise to the status of "pain" then i wouldnt say it qualifies.
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist What would be some good alternatives to spankings for younger children? I’d be more apt to condemn all spanking if I knew of some good alternatives.
There might be alternatives to spanking, and they might work really well for some kids. But there might be kids who need some physical reinforcement. Until the vague concept of "a child" with all its superpositions of what a child could be collapses into "the child in front of you right now" you can't know exactly what will or won't work.
That said, it's something you have to be careful of because the purpose of any discipline is not to make the parent feel better, but to try to help the child in the long run. One of the dangers of using pain as a disciplinary tool is there's always a risk of misusing it or using it instead of better tools for the job because it feel better in a moment of negative emotion from the parent.
While I obviously agree that kids need very different ways to learn, the idea that beting them might be an effective child rearing tool for **any** child just sounds bonkers to me.
NO child is going to learn best from being beat, none.. . The few who might appear to be raised well will have serious underlying issues that scar them for the rest of their lives. How aware of it they are is another matter.
I think if I ended up in that hypothetical scenario where he did need that.... I dunno, might just let the little guy grow up to be a serial killer and just act dumb...
I mean thats what most parents do, they take their frustration out on their kids by beating them, call it disciplin so they can lie to themselves and not feel guilty when they beat their child out of frustration.
@freemo @sj_zero @niclas @AmpBenzScientist I don’t think anyone here is condoning spanking or beating for emotionally soothing reasons though.
Of course not. The problem is any parent who beats their kid that is ultimately why. Most parent would never admit it, and as usually happens they use something as an excuse (like religion or disciplin or whatever)... but the truth is, they are taking the easy way out as parents, just hit the kid still he stops doing what you dont want...
Because we arent talking about conscious motive for one, and for two, you simply can not be a rational well reasoned parent who doesnt have emotional issues and still beat your child.
Thats like saying "well how can you know hitlers motives"... well I dont need to to know he is messed up in the head and has issues to even act that way.
Parents who beat their kids arent hitlet, but they are similarly fucked up, no parent could be their kid and not be
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist @sj_zero Comparing parents who spank their children to literally #Hitler is wild
As I said, they arent hitler... but yea you cant beat any child, least of all your own, and not be a seriously disturbed person.
Well I would say that its not just that we are having this conversation, because a parent who beats their kid might also engage in a simiilar conversation, partly so they can lie to themselves (not that they would know it)...
I'd sayt her eason i can be comfortable we are all thoughtful parents in that regard is actually because, in additional to being here and talking we also dont beat our children.
@sj_zero @freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist How many of us here actually have kids tho, let’s be real
I do not.. though im not sure having a kid makes you any more qualified.. .maybe after the fact if you have well adjusted successful kids.. but just having kids alone, not so much.
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist @sj_zero Fair enough.
I do plan on having a family and kids someday so it’s not like I’m shooting the breeze about pure hypotheticals I never plan on acting on. This is something I’ve thought about for years.
Yea me and my girlfriend talk about kids... so it may be in my near future (next few years)
I think you have the right motivation and insight to have a successful child-rearing period of life. Good Luck. It starts out really bad, and then gets worse for 18 years ;-) jk
A lot of people who "discipline" their children do so on the basis of "it was good for me", having memories of doing bad stuff as a child and gotten spanked by dad. Not remembering why he/she was "doing bad" in the first place (sub-optimal parents).
To me, it was simple; My parents never laid their hands on me. Instead was incredibly patient and explaining "why" and quite often letting me find out the hard way (such as hurting myself) and getting the reinforced "I told you so", starting way before I remember.
I had to convince my wife that violence is not going to happen. (Although it did... by TEACHERS!! Until I found out!)
He is 19 now, hates school/teachers and got his first job.
Its so surprising, who would think that having people beat you might cause you to have issues...
Like at some point someone went "Oh the kid has learning troubles, have you tried beating him a bunch until the learning problems go away"?
I cant fathom how anyone can be rational and compassionate and think beating a child or anyone is going to result in a positive change.
@freemo @niclas @AmpBenzScientist @sj_zero Your language here presumes us all to believe that spanking someone is the same as beating them, which nobody else here believes.
That’d be like me going around saying “women think they should kill their babies if keeping them around is inconvenience” while having a conversation about abortion. While I do equate abortion to murder, 1) not everyone does so it’s not helpful for the conversation and 2) the vast majority of people engaging in abortion don’t believe that it’s murder.
I hope that analogy makes sense.
> Your language here presumes us all to believe that spanking someone is the same as beating them, which nobody else here believes.
Beating is defined as "a punishment or assault in which the victim is hit repeatedly."
Spanking is defined as "an act of slapping, especially on the buttocks as a punishment for children."
Its is very clear from the definitions a spanking is a form of beating in which the beating typically occurs on the buttox.
What you probably mean to say is "A violent aggressive beating is far worse than a less violent and less aggressive beating on the butt"
So on that we agree, less violence is better... its still deplorable and disgusting. If you are inflicting pain on a child and expected physical pain inflicted intentionally by a loved one is anything less than reprehensible then we are at odds.
Its is very clear from the definitions a spanking is a form of beating in which the beating typically occurs on the buttox.
I could say the same about the “what is a woman” question, but some of y’all wouldn’t like that 😂 what matters most is the colloquially understood meanings, rather than what you might find in a dictionary.
Dictionary definition of a woman: "an adult female human being."
The relevant definitions for female:
"having a gender identity that is the opposite of male"
"having a quality (such as small size or delicacy of sound) sometimes associated with the female sex"
The gender definitions for woman seem to work against your implied take quite well actually.
The gender definitions for woman seem to work against your implied take quite well actually.
Nope. I can say into the ether that men shouldn’t be in womens’ bathrooms, that’s my opinion. But if I’m having a discussion with someone who thinks that men and women can go back and forth between those states, it would be stupid for me to use language that’s incongruent with the language that the other participants in the conversation understand.
> The gender definitions for woman seem to work against your implied take quite well actually.
Nope. I can say into the ether that men shouldn’t be in womens’ bathrooms, that’s my opinion.
Sure, well according to the english language they arent. Those people you are calling men are women according to the dictionary.
What I think you mean to say is "Access to bathrooms should be divided by sex, not gender"... which is fine, by highly oppressive to people who have DNA that differs from their genitals (some of whom are born that way and many of whom dont even know).
> it would be stupid for me to use language that’s incongruent with the language that the other participants in the conversation understand.
Thats why we have dictionaries. We all agree we are going to use english,a nd the dictionaries are our common agreement. Your the one who has derailed the conversation by several messages to argue that your semantic use of the word, which disagrees with the dictionary should be the one we all use. This didnt help the conversation at all because me by strictly using the english terms could be understood without all of these mental gymanistics to form a euphemism so people feel less bad about people they care about who beat children. We all gotta justify it somethow I guess.
The problem is any parent who beats their kid that is ultimately why.
Now THAT’S outta pocket. How can you possibly know the motive of every parent who beats or spanks their kid?