Apparently capitalism is even more late stage than we'd been led to believe.

@peterdrake No such thing as late stage capitalism, capitalism doesnt have stages, it is the default state

@freemo @peterdrake

I think in many senses capitalism is indeed currently the default state, but it wasn't in the past and probably won't be in the future!

@iankenway

I disagree, capitalism is the default even among animals.. Teh key is understanding that capitalism is not something on the opposite end of a spectrum with socialism... socialism in the form you have in europe is still capitalism, As long people are free to trade among themselves it is capitalism

@peterdrake

@freemo @peterdrake

"capitalism is the default even among animals."

Any evidence? Chapter and verse for this statement? Me? I hate fundamentalism in all its forms...

@iankenway

Yes, barter behavior is well studied in chimps and occurs naturally without any instruction:

http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwexa/news/archive/2009/09_0610-tradingbehavior.html

@peterdrake

@freemo @peterdrake

Difficult times so a simple answer on this occasion. Bartering and free markets (which I fully support) don't equate to capitalism. Many other factors are in the frame e.g. (to use traditional language) usury!

@iankenway
I disagree thats exactly what capitalism is, free trade.
@peterdrake

@freemo @peterdrake

Umm. I think there may be a 'category error' thing going on here!

@iankenway
People have tried to manipulat capitalism to mean something much more than it really does. In truth thats all it is. The other qualities people often try to describe of capitalism are really something else.

In your own words how would you identify the fundemental properties that define a capitalism? I suspect you mean something by a different name
@peterdrake

@freemo @peterdrake

First, when I referred to a "category error" I had in mind the philosopher Gilbert Ryle who actually used the term "category mistake".

Capitalism, for me, isn't just about free markets (a necessary condition) but also includes the practice of credit creation (through the charging of interest) as well as private and non-state corporate enterprise and ownership.

@iankenway
The term you are thinking of is Quantitative easing. It is not necceserary or part of the definition of a capitalism.

You are correct though that a capitalism does not allow for state ownership, but that is still the default and true of chimps or clearly have no sense of state and anything a chimp has is his own.

@peterdrake

@freemo @peterdrake

Thanks for your comments.

I was a little puzzled by your reference to ‘Quantitative Easing’ which, as far as I understand it, is an unconventional monetary policy in which a central bank purchases longer-term securities from the open market in order to increase the money supply with the aim encourage lending and investment. In short, it’s a tool of last resort when the normal ‘opus operandi’ of capitalism has failed/is failing.

I agree that chimpanzees (and other higher apes) probably have no concept of ‘the state’, but obviously they are aware of other social structures! In addition, I strongly doubt if chimpanzees have any concept of ‘ownership’. According to Sarah F. Brosnan in her publication ‘Property in Non-human Primates’ (Department of Psychology, Georgia State University, 2011): “Property in primates is rare, and exists almost exclusively in the form of possession, not ownership”. In this context, capitalism without ownership would be a very rare unicorn indeed!