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@realcaseyrollins
Ah yes, dangerous gender transition. This seems like a rather biased source.
@jump_spider They're biased but they're not wrong
@realcaseyrollins
What's dangerous about transitioning?
@realcaseyrollins
What academic research has lead you to suggest that most of us regret medical transition?
In what moral framework is medical transition "morally wrong"?
What is the functional difference between someone who pays professional to surgically remove part of their cheek such that their teeth are visible (a well known though obviously extreme form of aesthetic body modification) and genital reconstruction surgery? Is one person's idea of self-mutilation not clearly another person's idea of self-actualization?
What medical research has lead you to suggest that hormone replacement therapy for medical transition dangerous?
Have you considered that a desire to detransition may have less to do with personal regret and more to do with how those of us who do not "pass" even after medical transition are treated by others?
To be frank concerning children who wish to medically transition, because they have not reached the legal age of majority and medical transition being still very much bound in legal approval, how would you suggest a child to be able to pursue medical transition at all? A 16-year-old girl can choose to have unprotected sex and there are many who believe she should accept the lifelong consequences and responsibilities that may result from her choice; why should that be different for a transgender child?
Health risks: https://youtu.be/Eaq6kbk0LZ4 (skip to 3:51 for the scientific evidence)
On regretting sex transition surgery:
https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740
Also chopping off a penis is different than ripping out your cheek. Sure, you've lost a part of your body that helps you eat by keeping food in your mouth, but at least you can still eat.
If you get castrated, you cannot procreate. End of story. It completely removes a bodily function. It's more akin to getting two feet amputated.
@jump_spider Also being from America and supporting freedom I do this people should be able to "transition", no matter how unethical that might be. The age question is a good one. I see three logical views:
1. Age of consent. (At a certain age, you can make all self-affecting sexual choices.)
2. When puberty is over. (This means at around ages 10-14 for girls and 12-16 for boys. They know what being their birth gender is like and can decide if they don't like it.)
3. When their brain's developed. (This means around 25 y/o. One can now decide if they want their brain to remain the same or be affected by "transition" surgery.)
@realcaseyrollins
Strictly anecdotally, many of us report emotional and general psychological trauma experienced from the effects of natal puberty. With respect, we know exactly what it's like to be the gender we are; puberty typically only affirms it. If a child expresses genuine interest in suppressing their natal puberty, why should a parent not be able to consent on their behalf to puberty hormone blocker treatment, the same way a parent can consent on a child's behalf to get a lip piercing?
@jump_spider First of all, again, hormone blockers before or during puberty permanently and radically affect the growth of bone plates. It's no small thing to mess around with those. Parents are supposed to protect their children from physical harm.
Secondly, no, a child does not completely understand what it like to be an adult male or adult female. So, it is most fair to allow them to grow up into full maturity so they can know what it's like, and then decide if they don't like it or not.
@jump_spider * like it or not
@realcaseyrollins
An 18 year old doesn't understand the ramifications of being a legal adult, yet is and learns through life experience. Transgender adults grow up from transgender children; why should a trans child have to "prove" they understand an experience, namely being cisgender, that they will never have, before they are allowed to medically transition? Who is the gatekeeper for self-actualization?
@jump_spider The difference is that the 18 y/o doesn't have a choice, he will be an adult. Meanwhile anybody can chop up their privates and call themselves a different sex.
And I'm not saying they should have to prove any sort of experience, but to wait until a time when that experience could be expected. Otherwise I would advocate making them wait beyond the end of puberty.
What I find interesting us your commitment to seld-actualization; what is that?
@realcaseyrollins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization
My argument is that your or anyone else's expectation that I or any other transgender person will ever "experience what it is like to be cisgender" is tautologically unsound
@jump_spider I'm not saying they will experience what it's like to be cisgender (although the study says otherwise). Remember, cisgender is just a sexual orientation. I'm just saying to let them know what it's like to be in a mature body.
@realcaseyrollins
Your claim is factually incorrect. Cisgender and transgender are gender identities, which are orthogonal to sexuality
@jump_spider What's the difference between a sexual orientation and a gender identity?
@realcaseyrollins
There are many articles online that inform that difference. I encourage you to use your own research skills
@jump_spider P.S. puberty actually does not affirm it, 75% to 90% of children who say they want to transition decide to stick with their birth sex after they finish puberty.
@realcaseyrollins
Citation, please
@realcaseyrollins
I consider this source to be largely unbiased, thank you. This particular link discusses the scientific validity of the claim you made as well as serious scientific methodological concerns re: how desistance is experimentally operationalized. In short, the claim that an overwhelming or even simple majority of transgender children stop being trans is spurious at best.
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Has anyone bothered to actually weigh the trauma of not having the final say about your own body?
I am not trans, but I can relate rather indirectly. As a kid i had a deep rooted fear of needles, as im sure many kids do. I refused to get them no matter how needed it might be, but my mother insisted.
As a result she took me to a doctor and they strapped me down as I kicked and screamed and bit so they could draw blood. They eventually got the needle in me and I was too violent for them to get the vein and they gave up (might have helped that i kicked the doctor right in the balls as he tried to tie me up, no regrets). She tried this with a few other doctors all with the same result.
By the end of this ordeal, having no say over my own body, I was deeply fearful of all doctors even my own mother. I refused to go to a doctor, if she pulled up to a hospital or doctors office I would escape or tie myself into the car. To this day if i am in a hospital or doctors office i feel a sense of panic, which luckily I can overcome. But it is clear this violation of my body led to some degree of psychological harm.
I did later on have a doctor my mom brought me to who recognized this. He took me as his patient but made it clear to my mom he would refuse to do any treatment on me without my consent (and hers of course). When they needed to take blood and i refused he took a therapist type approach and isntead of forcing me let me know in the end it was up to me but also explained what that meant, the reprocutions i might face if i refused and some ways he could protentially help to make the expiernce better (including numbing agents). Eventually this worked and helped to offset a good deal of the trauma and eventually volunteers for the medical help I needed. Being on my terms and getting the last say was critical.
I think most children are far far more capable of rationalizing the future and the consequence of their actions that most people give them credit for.
@freemo
I applaud your sharing of your personal experience. As a trans adult, and from discussion with several dozens of trans people both in person and in several online communities, I can share that the systemic denial of one's own bodily autonomy is, in a word, *exhausting*. Radical critics paint trans adults as predatory wrt trans children, but their perspective ignores the simple truth that we remember vividly what it was like growing up.
@realcaseyrollins
That is the single biggest driving thought in my own acceptance of children going through hormone therapy, body autonomy, combined with the fact that hormones are only fully effective pre-puberty, while they do work to some extent post-puberty they are far less effective and sometimes, especially in older adults, have no effect at all.
In the end the only one who will have to deal with the consequences is the child, so they should have the final say unless they have demonstrated (not through age but demonstrated) they are not of sound mind and body.
@freemo @jump_spider Why don't we let them smoke then?
@realcaseyrollins
Your question is unrelated because it is a false equivalency. Voluntarily becoming addicted to a substance is not a human right
@freemo
@jump_spider @freemo I didn't say anything about getting addicted. (For instance, plenty of people smoke cigars and are not addicted.) Your statement itself is a false equivalency, that smoking = addiction.
That is a very good question. As a parent if a child smokes I feel you probably raised your child poorly. This is best addressed not by physically preventing them from smoking but by teaching them why it is a bad choice.
the fact is most parents dont raise their kids very well, and part of that is exactly that mentality of having the last say about their body. Most kids who go and smoke tobacoo likely do it in defiance for a parent who doesnt give the child the responsibility and teaching to make the choice correctly.
So yes in society we do prevent kids from smoking, but we have it alllll backwards.
@freemo @jump_spider I like consistency. If a kid can't smoke or get a tat they shouldn't be able to make a bigger decision, like chopping off their private parts.
As i said before, I would argue that kids should be allowed to get a tattoo or smoke, presuming they can demonstrate they understand their decision. This demonstration should not be based on age but rather how a person speaks and acts.
I'd say the same for an adult. If someone is 40 years old and clearly is speaking in a way that they cant understand what is going on around them, then they should be denied a cigerette.
I have long held that rights should not be age-dependent as they currently are but should be granted based on ones demonstration of coherence.
@freemo @jump_spider As Jump Spider rightly pointed out, what would be your criteria for "understanding"?
The same criteria we currently use to determine if we have a right to commit an adult to an asylum against their will.
Most people can tell the difference between someone using reasoning vs someone who can not reason. IEven if you disagree with their reasoning.
For example i disagree with your logic here but it is clear you are capable of using your own reasoning to work through the problem and that you are capable of perceiving reality with that reason.
@realcaseyrollins
It is a common and malignant misconception that anyone of significance has ever advocated for full genital reconstruction surgery for a person under the age of majority
@freemo
@jump_spider @freemo Should parents be able to put a child under the age of majority through full genital reconstruction surgery?
And again this ignores the damage done by hormone suppression medication prior to puberty.
As we agreed the evidence is conflicting, some suggests it causes damage pre-puberty other evidence suggests it prevents damage. Since we already agreed to that you cant fall back on the idea that it causes damage, we already agreed we dont know, at least objectively.
As I covered earlier if hormone therapy helps it is only really fully effective pre-puberty. It will **not** have the same level of results post-puberty as pre-puberty that is the critical point here.
Genital reconstruction you can do later and no real harm done, it will be just as effective later on. So I'd say that generally that particular procedure should wait until a bit later in life. But hormone therapy is a very different beast and if it is be done, if it is to effective, it must be done pre-puberty or else it may not work at all.
@realcaseyrollins
I'll follow the links tomorrow to give my due diligence, but I'm relaxing for the night.
What about phalloplasty and top surgery? Trans femme people are not the only ones who seek GRS.
The statement that vaginoplasty precludes reproduction is factual yet I do not think anything was meaningfully conveyed wrt morality. What about a bilateral salpingectomy? Vasectomy? Orchiectomy? Only the last is strictly related to GRS, but the former are voluntary surgical sterilization procedures in general. Are they immoral and if so, on what basis?
@jump_spider It isn't the losing of a bodily function that makes it sinful, but rather trying to fundamentally physically change what you are because you're not satisfied with how God made you.
@realcaseyrollins
I reject your god and will thank you to not push it on me or anyone else
@jump_spider You certainly have a right to do so, but you will not stop me from talking about Him.
Would that also apply if you go on a diet and loose weight. Shouldnt you just accept that god made you overweight and therefore dieting would be a sin
Or is it more likely that dieticians, diet plans, and medical help to loose weight is as much tools that god puts at your disposal as hormone therapy would be?
@freemo @realcaseyrollins
And perhaps god made some of us transgender for that matter
Seems to me if we talk about god terms then we have to recognize that god often gives us challenges for the sake of overcoming them. He certainly doesnt expect you to keep things "as they are" lest be in sin. Changing the state of things, changing your own self, is not against god, it is the mostly godly thing one can do, presuming you work towards a state in which you better yourself.
So to me the whole argument "you were born that way dont mess with it" seems anti-god, not pro god. If he wanted you to be born perfect then there would be no need for any form of self-betterment of any kind. and self betterment always inherently means changing who you are in some way.
How do you feel this passage supports your PoV. As I stated, if the challenges faced are placed there by god for you to overcome, then by NOT taking the chance to solve the problem when you have the means (even if that means hormone therapy) then you are working against your maker, since the maker is the one who created the earth, the challenges, and the tools to address them.
@freemo @jump_spider It supports it because it says it's ridiculous to think you know better than God how you should be. Yes, God wants us to work through struggles and personal issues, but tbh, transitioning does the opposite; it seeks to forgo overcoming the personal issues instead of chopping up your privates and pretending to be a different sex.
Perhaps, perhaps not. What means do you have to determine if what god wanted you to be was a transitioning adult?
Since you learn and change every day how could you know what god wants you to be and what he doesnt.
If you take an antibiotic are you going against what god wanted you to be (A dead man with a bacterial infection)?
1. By reading the Bible and acting accordingly.
2. No, because the Bible condones using medicine for healing.
1) the bible makes no mention of trans people and in no way clearly supports your point. You must rely on your own opinion and interpritation of what the passages mean to draw the conclusion you did, so no the bible is still not an authority in that case, as it is still dependent on you.
2) IF the bible condones medicine for healing, then hormone therapy can be seen as medicine trans people take to heal
You may disagree on #2, and again you have that right, but it is clear that the science on this in either direction is non-conclusive.
@freemo @jump_spider Yes I've seen conflicting evidence.
Yea the evidence on if it is helpful is conflicting indeed. But the point here is that when it is unclear on whether it is harmful or curative, as is the case is here, then all the more reason the judgement call should be left with the person who will suffer the consequences.
@freemo @jump_spider True. I think if it could be conclusively proven that it helps gender dysphoria it would be more fitting to consider it an ethical treatment.
It would certainly make such decisions easier for everyone. If i were a parent honestly i dont know what id do. Your concerns are valid that its a mistake that cant be reversed and drasstic. So I understand the caution. But as i said its also a decision you cant make as an adult because it is too late at that poiint
In the end if i were a parent faced with that decision id probably get therapy for both my child and me just to make sure both the therapist and myself can explain the consequyences of the decision Make the child as aware as I can, but in the end, it would be my child's call if i felt they were responsibly working through what they were feeling.
My child is the one facing the consequences so the final say should be theirs.
@freemo @jump_spider Also it's not "God terms", we typically refer to it as "Christianese"
Well god is hardly unique to christianity. God is a figure in most religions.
@jump_spider Firstly, it often consists of genital mutilation, and sometimes includes taking a dangerous level of opposite-sex hormones. Apart from that, people who transition often regret their decision later and wish to reverse it.
But some people have the procedure done and are fine, ignoring the self-injury aspect. Although it's morally wrong, it's more important to address these procedures targeting kids. If a kid has these procedures done, his or her bone plates will not develop properly.