@freemo @pies @MelodyCooper If we’re shifting goalposts now to mass shootings, the US doesn’t have the worst per capita death rate related to that. Also, most of those mass shootings in that statistic are gang related, which also confounds your clearly well formed opinion even if you wanted to say that study was outdated. You clearly just want to preach, which is fine I guess.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo I'm not, @freemo had mentioned it.

Anyway, what about tha murder rate? Is it the lack of old architecture? Maybe it's the freedom? I'm sure there must be reasons other than very easy and uncontrolled access to something that's specifically designed to kill people.

@freemo @MelodyCooper @pies The point was that there will always be a way to get past regulations. That it can happen in tightly regulated places too, so picking out one of the rare instances where a shooter could actually afford a full auto is disingenuous at best. Not to mention you ignored the most common form of mass shooting: gang conflicts - often perpetrated with guns that weren’t legally acquired in the first place. And it’s all meaningless anyways since everyone is at most a $2500 mini-cnc machine away from having basically any gun they want these days. Bullets might be the harder part of that equation actually, but they’re also pretty easy to make, I’m pretty sure I know someone who’s made both.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And you go on and on about things that aren't US-specific. What is different about the US that causes you guys to murder each other much more frequently than in, say, Spain or UK?

@MelodyCooper @freemo @pies Our gang violence is pretty substantial here, probably more so than most developed countries. Just because you want to ignore this doesn’t make it untrue. Please stop changing topics.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo CDC estimates that gang violence was responsible for 10% of overall homicides in 2020. So I think you need another excuse.

@freemo @pies @MelodyCooper I think you need to consider that even if you took away all gun violence the murder rate in the US would still be high, many times higher than most developed countries - guns are clearly very far from the main problem here. I’m trying really hard to be good faith and polite here, but I haven’t seen any sign of that from you whatsoever. I could point to any number of stats, but because any single one of them doesn’t account for the entire discrepancy it won’t matter to you, you’ll just jump to an entirely different subject or ignore it.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo Where are those stats then? You claim the reasons are different, and you keep moving the goalpost on that (so it's not gang violence after all?)

I'm curious to know what particular piece of data makes you so sure it's not the easy access to guns that's causing all those extra murders to happen.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And no, I'm not skipping around, or moving the goalpost. I'm talking about the reasons for US having so many more murders than any other rich country.

I do appreciate that US has many structural problems that may cause people to turn to violence, from prolific lack of access to basic necessities of life like health care and housing, to an incredibly harmful mass incarceration system you've built, to a lack of support for getting out of poverty that plagues vast swaths of US. I get that. And that's quite unusual for a rich country and I'm sure contributes to the problem. And if you had like 50% or even 100% more murders, I could buy that argument. But the disparity is much, much larger.

@freemo @pies @MelodyCooper Again, even without guns it’s over that line.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo And what is the source for this assertion?

@MelodyCooper @freemo @pies Did you seriously think the entire difference was just in guns?

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo I still don't see any data or links.

@pies

I havent seen any valid data on the topic from either of you....

@zack @MelodyCooper

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Which one are you questioning? Murder rates, number of gang-related homicides, Swiss gun laws?

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

I didnt say i was questioning anything... but you two are both disagreeing with eachother and neither of you have provided any sort of high quality data to make either case.

So im just pointing out its kinda odd for you to complain he isnt providing data when you really havent done that yourself either.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper So my data is unspecifically invalid, gotcha.

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

No it is specifically.invalid and commented multiple times in the thread why every time you attempted to share invalid data

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Yeah, this kind of goes as expected :) Gun nuts ask for data, then they don't like the data, they have no data, and they keep believing. Well, I hope more people come to their senses, their democratic voice gets heard, and you fix your glaring problem so that gun nuts around here don't point to US and claim you're doing great despite the guns.

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

Sorry but you dont win science debates by seeing who can post the most intellectually dishonest links to data... not how honest scientific inquery works. The fact you think it does shows you are probably the only "nut" here. The fact you felt the need to make personally attacks to everyone who disagrees with you really proves it though

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Sure, that's the reason you haven't provided any data. That's the reason our conversation led nowhere. Well, good luck with your safety guns.

@pies

What assertion have I made havent provided data for? I have posted the data for pretty much all my assertions in the past, at least if/when someone brought it up.

@zack @MelodyCooper

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper You have not provided data for any of those assertions:

@pies

I sure have, probably 50 times over the years, and several times this month alone (as its been a significant topic)... I've addressed both why the data and science we have is lacking (on either side of the discussion).. why its bad approach to analysis and Data for whats out there, and likewise provided data nad charts from the data we have access to...

So yes I've shared the data to that, quite often and recently.. I guess what you meant to say is you never saw or asked me for data and now are upset because I called **you** out for not having data so now your diverting the spotlight and trying to make it sound like I refuse to provide data when I actually did? Umm ok, not a good look, but ok. But yea if you want to download the data with me and do the analysis I'll be happy to go through it with you step by step. Its on my timeline but we can process the data together if you'd like as well.

@zack @MelodyCooper

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Still the same :D No, I'm not changing the subject, I'm literally answering your question. And sure, let's say I also provided my data and sources elsewhere, so we can be done.

@pies @zack @MelodyCooper

Lol no my dats was actually provided and you only asked for it once **you** were called out for not providing any.. sorry buddy but doesnt work that way. Youve provided no data, you dont get to act superior by imagining you did and then calling out others who actually did provide data and pretending they didnt.

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper Whatever I could provide you'll just say that I'm wrong and you don't have to provide any proof because you did before. What would be the point?

@freemo @zack @MelodyCooper But sure, here you go, a list of studies linking number of guns to homicide rates. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

Let me guess, it doesn't prove causation, because it's a study.

@freemo @pies @MelodyCooper More like it isn’t conclusive science because there is no experiment to be done. But you could find a general direction with this kind of observational data, just be careful you might not like what other conclusions you could get with this kind of analysis.

@zack @MelodyCooper @freemo The other conclusion being that people started buying guns after all the knife shootings?

@MelodyCooper @freemo @pies Another conclusion, would be that maybe there’s more than one factor in this discussion. I know this might be a little sophisticated for a person like you, but there are a lot of differences between the US and Europe that extends past guns. Give that you weren’t aware that new SMGs aren’t legal to purchase in the US, you might also not be aware that different states have differing laws and general circumstances. For example, the Deep South has high rates of poverty - you can see large chunks of those states might not even have access to power. Is their rate of violent crime and murder due to guns or poverty? Yes, the United States are not totally uniform - which is important.

@zack @freemo @pies Just (reluctantly) jumping in here to say that the level of gun violence in the United States does have multiple factors affecting it, poverty being one. Hatred and irrational fears being another. The point is, when you have any of those factors in play and you add guns, it’s like adding a match to a powder keg. (The match being the gun). Why would you do that?

@MelodyCooper @zack @pies

I think everyone is in agreement that the violence in the usa is a multitude of factors of which any influence guns have is at best a small fraction. Of course i disagree that addi g guns is like adding a match, mutch the opposite its like untying peoples hands so they can act.

@freemo @MelodyCooper @zack No, I think guns play a major role in murder rate. They're not the only factor, obviously, but they're the big one.

@pies @MelodyCooper @zack

Then on that we agree, as I feel the evidence shows it strongly decreases the murder rate when having it present in a society with high murder rates. Though I suspect you think the opposite is true,

@freemo @pies @zack What?? Most domestic violence murders are committed with guns. How do more guns prevent that? Or stop corrupt police who shoot totally unarmed people? Are you saying if we OK Corral it and wives had guns and ALL citizens could shoot back at bad cops it would be a safer, better world? I mean, just following your More Guns are Better in a Gun Killing Environment logic. Where and when would the shooting end?

@MelodyCooper @pies @zack

More guns dont stop all forms of violence.. the presence of guns are preventing coubtless rapes and violent acts many before they even start as a deterrant.

So yes while you eliminate guns all your doing is eliminating some home murders with guns, replacing it with murders by other means and then adding countless new rapes and murders on top.

It shouldnt be hard to see how a murder witb a gun simply gets replaces with a murder with a knife, 2 rapings, and a strangle.

@freemo @MelodyCooper @zack Is your claim that US has a significantly lower sexual assault rate as somepared to other rich countries?