My point of view about the situation in #Spain (/cc @admitsWrongIfProven):
> _“The gouvernment that brought you good things for the people”_
Err… sure. What government does not bring at least some “good things for the people”?
> _“I heard nothing negative about them in terms of caring for the people”_
Not sure I understand. One does not need to hear anything specific to know that in a democracy of ~48M people millions of voters think that the government is not “caring for the people” properly, much, or at all.
In this case: I think this government “didn't care” much for the youth (transfers of wealth from younger generations to boomers in the form of public pensions, massive public debt and a two-tier job market), for men (a divisive strand of feminism), for women (ditto, cf trans issues), for immigrants (several scandals about that), for entrepreneurs and freelancers (populist rhetoric against wealth and corporations), for the middle class (tax hikes), for students (our PISA scores are shameful), for the Sahrawis (they abandoned them to appease Morocco), or for truth and science (too many examples to cite).
> _“The only violence i heard of is […] not the catalans”_
There has been very little violence from any side, fortunately. (But lots of hatred.)
The crimes that will be erased now are mostly non-violent ones: rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.
> _“An amnesty seems a good idea to keep the peace”_
Roughly half of the population here disagrees. Recent History has proven otherwise: the more that institutions have appeased the separatists and made concessions to them, the more radical and defiant they grew.
> _“Fascists will never keep peace”_
I agree. Those whose crimes will be erased, those who signed the deal with #PedroSánchez, are fascists. As you say, they will never keep peace. For years they have been trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, appealing to nativist ideas, encouraging hatred towards other Spanish regions, attacking minorities and the individual, expecting groupthink, bending the facts and distorting History, and glorifying the idea of a nation.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Who are the fascists is very clear. Those who show Swastikas and the fascist salute, show symbols of the Franco regime and sing songs from the fascist "blue division". These things happens daily during the protests against the amnesty.
Yes, those are fascists too.
The good news is, nobody's signing a deal with them.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Oh, but they did. PP signed several agreements with fascist party Vox.
That's a dishonest sleight of hand that you did there.
The PP hasn't signed agreements with anyone “who show Swastikas and the fascist salute”.
_Any_ organisation with more than a few members has a fringe, freaks, psychopaths.
We have to analyse what the leaders say and do. Otherwise, no major party would come out unscathed.
The PSOE was (and will continue to be) in power with Podemos. The leaders of Podemos are avowed communists. The radical left has its own share of goons and even killers.
Anyway, none of this is relevant. I despise Vox, too. I don''t want them in power. I won't defend “the right”.
For the sake of making progress in the debate, assume we agree: Vox is made up of fascists. And the right is full of resentment.
How does any of that make this specific amnesty legal or ethical?
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
It's very simple: Fascists (as Vox) are the enemies of democracy. By agreeing to form coalitions with them the PP has excluded itself from other options.
Puidgemont, Junts and other seperatist parties are not opposed to democracy. I don't support their ideas and I think, seceding from Spain is would be a terrible mistake.
But they don't want to overthrow the government, put elected people in jail, abolish human rights, or similar things that only fascists do.
> _“It's very simple”_
If only!
> _“Fascists […] are the enemies of democracy. By agreeing to form coalitions with them [a poitical party excludes] itself from other options”_
“Enemy of democracy” is such a vaporous and loaded term. But OK, let's play that game.
Bildu is the umpteenth rebranding of the “political arm” of the ETA. Bildu supported terrorist attacks and enabled the violence that killed more than 800 people over many years, and continue to do so. You mention people “who show Swastikas and the fascist salute”… Well, Bildu has (had) some of its leaders behind bars for _shooting innocent village mayors, journalists, passers-by, etc, and for planting bombs_, all in the name of the “nation”. Talk about fascism! And in case you think they're the enemies of the Spanish regime only (not “of democracy”) they have always attacked _Basque_ democracy and fellow Basques who didn't think like them.
If Vox is fascist, Bildu definitely so.
So, by having agreed years ago to form a coalition with them, and announcing now that they will continue to do so, why is the PSOE not being excluded from other options? Why are Sumar, Coalición Canaria and a few other little parties allied with them?
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
"Bildu supported terrorist attacks and enabled the violence that killed more than 800 people over many years, and continue to do so."
So you have some sources to verify that?
@Haydar @tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea this is very interesting, especially considering Bildu was formed in 2011, one year after ETA declared a permanent ceasefire and five years after ETA killed for the last time. Maybe they were supporting a different terrorist band I'm not aware of?
Bildu is the umpteenth reincarnation of the same ideology (and many of the same leaders). Just different names.
Notice that, by the same token, right-with party Vox couldn't possibly be defending anything about the Francoist regime, since Franco died and his regime collapsed _decades_ before Vox was funded.
