My point of view about the situation in #Spain (/cc @admitsWrongIfProven):
“The gouvernment that brought you good things for the people”
Err… sure. What government does not bring at least some “good things for the people”?
“I heard nothing negative about them in terms of caring for the people”
Not sure I understand. One does not need to hear anything specific to know that in a democracy of ~48M people millions of voters think that the government is not “caring for the people” properly, much, or at all.
In this case: I think this government “didn’t care” much for the youth (transfers of wealth from younger generations to boomers in the form of public pensions, massive public debt and a two-tier job market), for men (a divisive strand of feminism), for women (ditto, cf trans issues), for immigrants (several scandals about that), for entrepreneurs and freelancers (populist rhetoric against wealth and corporations), for the middle class (tax hikes), for students (our PISA scores are shameful), for the Sahrawis (they abandoned them to appease Morocco), or for truth and science (too many examples to cite).
“The only violence i heard of is […] not the catalans”
There has been very little violence from any side, fortunately. (But lots of hatred.)
The crimes that will be erased now are mostly non-violent ones: rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.
“An amnesty seems a good idea to keep the peace”
Roughly half of the population here disagrees. Recent History has proven otherwise: the more that institutions have appeased the separatists and made concessions to them, the more radical and defiant they grew.
“Fascists will never keep peace”
I agree. Those whose crimes will be erased, those who signed the deal with #PedroSánchez, are fascists. As you say, they will never keep peace. For years they have been trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, appealing to nativist ideas, encouraging hatred towards other Spanish regions, attacking minorities and the individual, expecting groupthink, bending the facts and distorting History, and glorifying the idea of a nation.
Of course. We all live in bubbles. I am no less ignorant about what goes on in Germany, or in Thailand. We are all quite UK- and US-centric, I guess.
This is my opinion. You’ll find plenty of Spaniards who will give you the exact opposite.
What can I say.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Who are the fascists is very clear. Those who show Swastikas and the fascist salute, show symbols of the Franco regime and sing songs from the fascist "blue division". These things happens daily during the protests against the amnesty.
Yes, those are fascists too.
The good news is, nobody’s signing a deal with them.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Oh, but they did. PP signed several agreements with fascist party Vox.
That’s a dishonest sleight of hand that you did there.
The PP hasn’t signed agreements with anyone “who show Swastikas and the fascist salute”.
Any organisation with more than a few members has a fringe, freaks, psychopaths.
We have to analyse what the leaders say and do. Otherwise, no major party would come out unscathed.
The PSOE was (and will continue to be) in power with Podemos. The leaders of Podemos are avowed communists. The radical left has its own share of goons and even killers.
Anyway, none of this is relevant. I despise Vox, too. I don’‘t want them in power. I won’t defend “the right”.
For the sake of making progress in the debate, assume we agree: Vox is made up of fascists. And the right is full of resentment.
How does any of that make this specific amnesty legal or ethical?
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
It's very simple: Fascists (as Vox) are the enemies of democracy. By agreeing to form coalitions with them the PP has excluded itself from other options.
Puidgemont, Junts and other seperatist parties are not opposed to democracy. I don't support their ideas and I think, seceding from Spain is would be a terrible mistake.
But they don't want to overthrow the government, put elected people in jail, abolish human rights, or similar things that only fascists do.
“It’s very simple”
If only!
“Fascists […] are the enemies of democracy. By agreeing to form coalitions with them [a poitical party excludes] itself from other options”
“Enemy of democracy” is such a vaporous and loaded term. But OK, let’s play that game.
Bildu is the umpteenth rebranding of the “political arm” of the ETA. Bildu supported terrorist attacks and enabled the violence that killed more than 800 people over many years, and continue to do so. You mention people “who show Swastikas and the fascist salute”… Well, Bildu has (had) some of its leaders behind bars for shooting innocent village mayors, journalists, passers-by, etc, and for planting bombs, all in the name of the “nation”. Talk about fascism! And in case you think they’re the enemies of the Spanish regime only (not “of democracy”) they have always attacked Basque democracy and fellow Basques who didn’t think like them.
If Vox is fascist, Bildu definitely so.
So, by having agreed years ago to form a coalition with them, and announcing now that they will continue to do so, why is the PSOE not being excluded from other options? Why are Sumar, Coalición Canaria and a few other little parties allied with them?
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
"Bildu supported terrorist attacks and enabled the violence that killed more than 800 people over many years, and continue to do so."
So you have some sources to verify that?
@Haydar @tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea this is very interesting, especially considering Bildu was formed in 2011, one year after ETA declared a permanent ceasefire and five years after ETA killed for the last time. Maybe they were supporting a different terrorist band I'm not aware of?
Bildu is the umpteenth reincarnation of the same ideology (and many of the same leaders). Just different names.
Notice that, by the same token, right-with party Vox couldn’t possibly be defending anything about the Francoist regime, since Franco died and his regime collapsed decades before Vox was funded.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
"If Vox is fascist, Bildu definitely so."
That is a very strange definition of fascism. It's not my understanding that Bildu wants to deport everyone who is not basque. They don't want to eliminate the rights of minorities like LGBTQI* people. Vox does.
There is now a chance to find a political solution. The "solution" of Vox and parts of PP would be to simply oppress the seperatist movements, which would result in violence.
We have so many open threads. I think you are not trying to answer my questions or evaluate my counterarguments. I’ll try once more.
“It’s not my understanding that Bildu wants to deport everyone who is not basque. They don’t want to eliminate the rights of minorities like LGBTQI* people.”
Bildu wants to kick everyone who is not they don’t consider Basque. That’s not only nativistic and nationalistic (two hallmarks of fascism), but also nonsensical, for several reasons:
- The Basque Country is tiny (it has less population than the city of Madrid).
- It’s not a separate “ethnic group” (Spain doesn’t have “a problem with its different ethnic groups”, as you said; it’s largely a matter of language and finance).
- It’s just impossible to determine who is “a Basque” and who isn’t: someone born and raised in the Canary Islands, the descendant of generations of Canarians, can move to Bilbao tomorrow and become, on paper, as “Basque” as anyone — and vice versa. And in case you’re wondering, fluency in Basque is irrelevant: there are descendants of generations of Basques, living in the land, who don’t speak the language either.
To try to achieve that, Bildu has enabled and encouraged violence for decades; not only towards “Spaniards”, but also towards fellow Basques who dared to think differently (another big tick in the “fascism” checklist). Some of its leaders are convict terrorists. You asked me about “some sources to verify that”: that’s vox populi, check the newspaper archives for the last 65 years, I guess.
Apart from “all Spaniards” and “the wrong kind of Basques”, Bildu has been a bully, often a violent one, towards the military, the police, the Civil Guard, the Monarchy, and anyone they perceive to be on “the right” — among others. Do those “minorities” not qualify, like “LGBTQI* people”?
“The ‘solution’ of Vox and parts of PP would be to simply oppress the seperatist movements”
Separatist ideas, speech and parties are fully legal. If by “oppress” you mean “prosecute with legal means”, then yes, I agree with those parties (and a few others) that one ought to “oppress” whatever is illegal. By definition. Unilateral separatism outside the law, of the kind #Puigdemont et al perpetrated in 2017, is illegal and should be “oppressed”. Just like we “oppress” extrajudicial killings, paedophilia, or the construction of a nuclear reactor in your backyard, and so many things. I don’t think that “the ‘it’s illegal’ and ‘it’s against the constitution’ argument is a very weak one”, and in fact I don’t understand how anyone could defend the rule of law negating those premises.
“Fascists are ruthless murderers. History shows that fascists can’t stopped by democratic means only.”
On that, we agree.
“Above the national law, there is international law, which grants the right of self determination”
Self-determination does not apply to the Catalan case. I think you didn’t read my essay. Check bogus argument no. 10, “they’re calling a referendum because self-determination is a basic human right”.
“I don’t get why it should be ethical wrong if Catalunya wants to choose its own faith”
I agree. There’s nothing inherently wrong in a country splitting in two. That’s not the question we’re debating.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
"We have so many open threads"
That's right, and you didn't answer my request for sources for your claim, that Bildu still supports terrorist actions.
Besides, Bildu wasn't the main point. The main point is, from my POV, how to resolve the mutliple conflicts with the various ethnic groups.
Force and oppression, like PP and especially Vox wants, isn't going to work. Sánchez is trying another way now, and that's good for a start.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
If this way is legal or illegal is for the court to decide, not for the protesters in the street. If the court rules that it is illegal I'm sure, that the government will change the plans.
One thing is for sure: Using violence and calling for a coup, as we see every day in Ferraz, is illegal.
I suggest, we "agree to disagree" and wait and see how the court will decide.
“Bildu wasn’t the main point”
I’ll tell you why we ended up here.
For you, “the important thing is, that the […] fascists are kept out of the government”, and you think that “a fascist party […] must be fought at all costs” because “ fascists can’t [be] stopped by democratic means only”.
…and yet you’re defending this alliance of PSOE with parties EH Bildu, ERC and Junts — at least one of which is at least clearly fascistoid. From my old essay:
“Spain knows, first hand, what fascism is. Advocating [for] national unity is not fascism. […] What is fascist is trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, using violence, prosecuting minorities, expecting groupthink and attacking the individual. Fascism is in the means.”
Add nativism and nationalism to the mix, as I wrote earlier.
(@gasull, this 👆 is why I’m calling some of the separatists “fascists”.)
If I can make you see that EH Bildu and their friends in Catalonia share many of those traits with the fascists that you so much despise, you will surely apply the same harsh words to them, and join me in condemning PSOE for associating with them. As you said, they “must be fought at all costs”!
@tripu @Haydar @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
I see, and I agree. Bildu definitely fascistoid. The Catalan separatists have authoritarian tendencies too, but definitely not as bad.
@tripu @Haydar @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
I haven't read your blog post very thoroughly, and although I agree with most of it, I have 2 disagreements mainly:
> #3 “Catalans have a right to express themselves”
> Nobody’s denying the citizens of Catalonia that right. Freedoms of expression, of the press and of assembly aren’t eroded in Catalonia, or elsewhere in Spain.
The Catalan government broke the law and misused funds. But people who just went to cast a vote, shouldn't be punished
@tripu @Haydar @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
And unfortuntately they were punished, hard. You won't find those videos in El País, but there were plenty of videos of the police going to the places where people were voting, and they came in beating people with violence, despite no resistance.
And this was unnecessary, since they could just ignore the whole farce and let them vote, since the consultation had no legal validity anyway.
I disagree in principle. For two reasons:
Elections and referendums cause nuisance (traffic jams, build-ups, noise, disruption to public buildings and institutions), divert the attention of the police, require many public buildings to be open, employ public servants, and waste public money and other public resources. Random people should not be allowed to keep the doors of public schools open for hours arbitrarily, or to invite the masses to enter public venues without authorisation.
Most importantly (as I outlined in my essay), I think that a referendum that tries to settle an unethical question is itself unethical, and participating in it in any way is unethical, too. So it has to be prevented. A thought experiment to see this point: imagine that the question to be decided, instead of “do you want Catalonia to be independent”, were much more absurd and obviously wrong, like “shall we keep women in cages and use them as slaves” or something of the sort. Would you be comfortable with masses of delusional people happily going to cast their vote? I surely wouldn’t. Yes, I know the referendum will be void. But I want the police to prevent the farce from even taking place.
But I concede that you have a (strategic) point: the net effect of having the police try to prevent voting was probably negative. I too suspect they went too far.
@tripu @Haydar @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
If I hold a referendum in my home to vote for asking reparations to Canada for bringing Michael Bolton to the world, I should still be allowed to hold it, because it's my freedom of expression, and also of the voters.
Lacking legal binding doesn't mean the referendum is illegal (or shouldn't be). It means that I'm holding a party/protest/carnival/farce, and I'm in my right to do so.
(Of course I don't have the right to use tax money for it).
@gasull
That sounds more like a public poll, to be honest. They're already legal and done mostly by phone or online (not in anyone's house). Although they need to meet some quality requirements to be considered valid.
Yeah. No tax money means no public schools used for that, no printing ballots with public money, not an hour of work from a public servant devoted to that. That’s the “misallocation of public funds” charge. That’s why I say it made sense that the police worked to stop it all.
Also, your Michael Bolton analogy doesn’t capture the gravity of the situation. Imagine half your fellow citizens voting to decide whether they’ll stop considering you a citizen or whether your family and friends will become alien, foreign, overnight. I bet you wouldn’t be so cool about allowing people to vote about whatever, confident that since it’s void it’ll have zero impact in your life.
@ImperfectIdea: Yes. If it isn't legally binding, then it's just a poll.
@tripu: I agree with the "missallocation of public funds" charge. But again, the people going to the polls aren't missallocating anything, and should be allowed to go without police violence. The Catalan government broke the law. The public did not.
"Imagine half your fellow citizens voting to decide whether they’ll stop considering you a citizen"
I don't think that was on the ballot.
1/2
“Using violence and calling for a coup, as we see every day in Ferraz, is illegal”
👍
“You didn’t answer my request for sources for your claim, that Bildu still supports terrorist actions”
Otegi, main leader of EH Bildu and its previous incarnations since 1994, has been condemned at least three times: for kidnapping an executive of Michelin, for glorifying terrorism, and for running an illegal party (deemed illegal for good reasons, such as encouraging citizens to join ETA, paying tribute to terrorists, and having many candidates who were members of ETA); and has been five times in prison.
No less than 23 leaders of his party were jailed for 7 years for collaborating with ETA. As recently as last year, EH Bildu was paying public tribute, with public funds, to convict killers. In this year’s general election, at least 44 of the candidates of Bildu were people sentenced for being members of ETA.
They always glorified the goons and killers, and never condemned the violence of ETA, those 800+ dead, and many, many more injured, bullied, or expelled from the Basque Country, or the immense material losses and terror on the streets for decades.
In the last few years, some of them have occasionally made noises in roughly the right direction, but that’s easy now that ETA is defeated and gone, and actions speak louder than words, so I leave it to you and your conscience to decide if EH Bildu is a peaceful, liberal, democratic party or not.
Tell me: what are the “various ethnic groups” you see in Spain?
What is your criterion? Why did you leave out Canarians, Riojans, Ubetenses, Ceutans, Rascafrienses or Torrejoneros?
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea My criterions are the same as science use. According to the science of ethnology Basques, Catalans and Galicians are distinct ethnic groups (among others in Spain).
You're doing the same as you're doing with the definition of fascism. No political scientist would categorize Junts, Bildu or any other seperatist party in Spain as "fascist" (while Vox does very well fit in that category).
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven @ImperfectIdea
Look, you made some valid points. But now we are at a point where you are contradicting scientific facts. So for me this discussion ends at this point.
I’m contesting your idea of “ethnic groups” in contemporary Spain because:
- “Ethnicity” is a very contingent and politically-motivated concept; think of how we have classified the “races” in the last centuries, how arbitrary (and “racist”) it all was — and is. “There has been constant debate over the classification of ethnic groups”.
- There’s no formal definition or set of criteria universally accepted, as opposed to real, meaningful scientific categories.
- The closest translations into Spanish are “grupo étnico” or “etnia”. Nobody in Spain uses those words to refer to anyone living in Spain (only exception: gypsies in Spain are commonly considered an etnia). Not even Catalan or Basque separatists talk in terms of “ethnic groups”. Thus my surprise when you introduced the concept in the debate.
- Ultimately, the concept it’s pointless. Sorting out people by “ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect and cultural heritage”, and granting different privileges to those groups of people, or prioritising the demands of some over the others, is regressive and against Humanism. Especially so when all those groups already share a common state, a Constitution, a military, a wealth redistribution system, a continuous chunk of land without internal borders, a cultural religion, and a language.
Apparently, the Vaqueiros de Alzada are one of those distinct “ethnic groups” in Spain. I’m sure some of them have made demands similar to those of Basque and Catalan separatists. Whatever new “rights” we grant the Basques and the Catalans, we must automatically grant to the Vaqueiros de Alzada too, or else we would be rewarding the Basques and the Catalans for having been violent and acting against the law. It’s all very absurd.
“Puidgemont, Junts and other seperatist parties are not opposed to democracy”
They are.
Exhibit A: nine years ago, the separatist Catalan government authorised police force to stop a popular “multireferendum” about a number of social issues in Catalonia, confiscating ballot boxes. Clearly, the Catalan leaders do not think that casting a ballot is always okay.
Exhibit B: Neither Puigdemont nor his party believe in self-determination of peoples as a principle: in 2014, the party and Puigdemont himself voted against a parliamentary motion for the self-determination of the Palestinians and the Syrian Kurds, and against a referendum for the independence of the Saharawi people of the West Sahara.
Exhibit C: When asked about the possibility of regions within Catalonia (eg, Tarragona, the Aran Valley) being given the chance to become independent themselves, to stay in Spain, or to become part of France, Puigdemont and his acolytes have consistently either evaded the question or answered negatively.
@Haydar
What do you call the people trampling over the Constitution, the rule of law, the separation of powers, the sovereignty of the people, and basic concepts of honesty and decency?
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @admitsWrongIfProven if you are referring to the amnesty law: Amnesty is a perfect legal instrument in a democracy. Modern Spain was founded on the base of an Amnesty law (1977). There were several cases of "tax amnesty". Of course, right wing politicians do not question those amnesties, because it was their people who have benefited from them.
The real reason why the right-wing is protesting is that they lost the elections and now want to divide society.
“Amnesty is a perfect legal instrument in a democracy”
In what democracy? Our Constitution doesn’t even mention the idea. Lots of lawyers and entire associations of judges, left and right, say it would be illegal. Libertarians say so. A few magnates of the PSOE are saying so even today. Pedro Sánchez himself and lots of his sycophants at the very top (eg, ministers) said there could be no amnesty because it’d be against the law and the Constitution until a few months ago.
“Modern Spain was founded on the base of an Amnesty law”
Very different circumstances. That amnesty was widely understood to be “the last one”. An amnesty was necessary to start from scratch, simply because there was no rule of law at the time (it was autarchy emanating from a coup d’etat).
“There were several cases of ‘tax amnesty’”
Yes. Two by the PSOE and one by the PP. Very different in nature to what is being announced now. And at least one of them was declared illegal by the Constitutional Court.
So what?
“The real reason why the right-wing is protesting is that they lost the elections and now want to divide society”
It’s not “the right-wing” protesting. Puigdemont’s own party is right-of-centre. The Basque separatists of the PNV, who are not protesting, are definitely in the right. Roughly half the country is opposed — and so is part of the moderate right, the centre, and lots of intellectuals and judges.
Pardoning criminals and supporting secession is, by definition, more divisive than applying the law and defending the unity of the country.
@tripu @Haydar @ImperfectIdea > Pardoning criminals and supporting secession is, by definition, more divisive than applying the law and defending the unity of the country.
Confused. You say the country is divided. Yet allowing the people with different ideas to leave is bad.
Do you perchance want the non-agressive people to stay because you fear what the others would do if they were all there is left?
Well, just a silly idea. I’ll see myself out…
@admitsWrongIfProven
They are not "leaving", they're deciding unilaterally what the country is - a country that belongs to all Spanish citizens. And they're doing so illegally and immorally.
You suggest we want the Catalans to stay because they're not aggressive, and the rest are? You do realise many Catalans also don't want independence, right? Do they want to stay with the "aggressive" Spaniards? Are you ok?
@ImperfectIdea @tripu @Haydar I simply do not have the information necessary to decide that.
The thread has given me some additional hints, but i am far from understanding what is going on.
What i want is for people to get along and live their best life. Nations, i see not how this concept would benefit people, it just brought pain and suffering for all i know.
But to improve, we would have to put something better there. I do not know what that could be, and i think the people there would know better - so i do need to take myself out of this.
Best to you :-)
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
So, why not make a referendum? Surely there is a legal way. Just saying "it's illegal" doesn't help to solve the problem.
If someone wants to leave, then holding him is only possible by force - sometimes only violent force (that's why there is a war going on in from Turkey occupied redions of Kurdistan for many decades)
@Haydar @ImperfectIdea @tripu Generally, many people suffer. If a part of one of these contrieved, forced partitions would do better with a part splitting?
Who knows. The whole concept is problematic, partitioning humans into countries? Sounds suspect to me.
I don't have the details to speak about the specific people involved. I just hope everyone can have a nice life. I find states a bit missing on delivering improvement, but what do i know.
@Haydar
I'm all for a referendum in which all Spanish citizens participate, not just Catalans, as long as it's Constitutional - the Constitution would have to be reformed for this first, and it would require a qualified and wide majority.
The 2017 "referendum" was illegal. The amnesty literally *buys* 7 votes so Sánchez can stay in power after losing the popular vote. Sánchez said up until election day that amnesty wouldn't happen. How does that sit with you?
@admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
So, Sánchez was not completely honest. No politician is, so what? The important thing is, that the Vox fascists are kept out of the government.
The "it's illegal" and "it's against the constitution" argument is a very weak one. Constitutions and laws change over time. Above the national law, there is international law, which grants the right of self determination. I don't get why it should be ethical wrong if Catalunya wants to choose its own faith
@Haydar
So the ends justify the means? Vox is a legitimate party with 3 million votes, using corruption to stop them is against all democratic and liberal values, and only emboldens them. Sánchez is also deceiving his own voters.
Surely laws and Constitutions can change. But before those changes, only the Judicial system can make decisions. Otherwise there's no separation of powers, which is a basic element of a democracy.
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
Vox is a fascist party and must be fought at all costs. The Nazi party NSDAP in Germany had 11 million votes, but that did not made them democratic or in any way ethical legitimate.
Fascists are ruthless murderers. History shows that fascists can't stopped by democratic means only.
However, I don't see that Sánchez did anything anti-democratic. He changed his mind after the election, like so many others did before him. Not nice, but legitimate.
@Haydar
Sánchez could have campaigned to ban fascist parties... or he could have banned them by decree. I mean, that's not the legal way, but who cares, right? What are the limits when fighting against opposing groups? Surely this won't set a precedent and won't ever be used against you.
Anyway, Godwin's Law means it's time for me to check out. Thank for the chat.
@ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu there is a difference between a "opposing group" which has a different political opinion and a group who want to eliminate everyone who doesn't belong to their people, from their point of view.
That is not Godwin. Godwin is, if one says "you are for/against that specific thing, you're a Nazi".
Talking about actual Nazis and fascists and how to stop them is something completely different.
@tripu @ImperfectIdea @admitsWrongIfProven
Also many lawyers say, the amnesty would be legal. So, why not let the Court decide?
It is not only a legal question, but also a political. Spain clearly has a problem with its different ethnic groups, otherwise this conflict wouldn't have been lasted so long. The amnesty brings the chance to solve this conflict. You can only solve conflicts if you treat your partners as equals.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
I don't follow the news about Spain that much, and although I think the relationship with the separatists is definitely abusive, and they have authoritarian aspects, I don't think I would call them "Fascists".
What am I missing?
I starred many of your other comments on this thread because I agree 100% with them. So this is my only disagreement. Am I unaware of something that would put the Catalan separatists in a clear Fascist bucket?
@tripu It seems a lot is going on that i do not see in my german bubble. It is generally sad that most non-inland news are dominated by US topics.
Thank you for indulging me, a bit of seeing beyond one’s nose is helpful.