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Interesting fact of the day: Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation **only** freed the southern slaves and kept the north slaves legal and enslaved. It was a sort "screw you to the south" more so than to abolish slavery.
Lincoln only supported and pushed through the 13th amendment once slavery was voluntarily abolished at the state level first.
Four Union States allowed slavery when the war started.
@threalist Yup, it was all the states that bordered the south but were in the north.
Though technically you could argue after the emancipation proclimation (since the north is the legal recognized government) the north was the only region left with slaves after that moment..
Of course the reality is more complex since southern states didnt recognize the authority. But at least from the perspective of the north, as the one true government, after that point slavery existed **only** in the north (legally).
@freemo @threalist Speaking of border states, one problem the South had was all the high tech industry was either in the North or in those border states that sided with the North.
The Confederates built a big powder mill - one of their few industrial successes - and they had to confiscate a Northern made steam engine to make it go!
They also wound up pulling railcars with horses because their steam locomotives were broken and they could not fix them.
> 25% of the white men who served were immigrants, and further 25% were first-generation Americans
Yea and similar the native americans (a group i am part of) were vastly abused by the north and sided mostly with the south.
Usually the picture painted as the north as some hero for minorities and the south as a bunch of racists is a gross oversimplification... The truth is both sides were just racists fighting racists, as would be the case at that time in history when everything and everyone was racist.
I might be wrong on this, reading history, I have the impression that white European elite(intellectuals, politicians, high class families, etc.) looked at many human civilizations and considered many as subhuman and treated their people as commodity i.e India, Africa, South America, Polynesia, etc).
I don't believe that this the defacto human civilization dynamic, were the dominant civilization enslave the other ones.
I think this white European Elite Ideology that still persist to this day in other forms of control at the global level, i.e modern debt slavery, IMF, WHO, etc.
Half true... it isnt "white European elite"... its literally every society, including minorities themselves.
The northern africans enslaved white people... we had to go to war to stop them from enslaving whites....
Central africans enslaved their own people for sale to salve traders, so they had a hand in their own slavery, and sometimes even owned their own slaves within tribes.
Native americans would enslave other native americans.
There is no shortage of examples of every race, any race, enslaving almost any other... this includes white people on both sides of slavery throughout history.
Civilizations fighting each other has always occurred, I agree, human using others for slaves or free labor, has occurred in many civilizations, I agree. But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology.
> The northern africans enslaved white people... we had to go to war to stop them from enslaving whites....
Bullshit, how much many of "white slave" descendant live in North Africa right now? Compare that of black slaves descendant that live in US or European colonies.
They were act of ship piracy, yes! The European were the ones taking north African for slaves thought out history from the Roman Empire to recent European colonization of North Africa.
>Central africans enslaved their own people for sale to salve traders, so they had a hand in their own slavery, and sometimes even owned their own slaves within tribes.
The slave trade has been forced to many African nations back then as they are now force to sell their natural resources for cheap.
>There is no shortage of examples of every race, any race, enslaving almost any other... this includes white people on both sides of slavery throughout history.
Classic history whitewash to justify the massive industrial scale of the European international slave trade.
I just want to add that the majority of white European are the victim of the white European Elite ideology, through out history i.e (WWI, WWII) and up to this day.
> But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology.
Not really, racial superiority is a concept that is as old as time.
> Bullshit, how much many of "white slave" descendant live in North Africa right now? Compare that of black slaves descendant that live in US or European colonies.
What? You say its bullshit and then argue against something no one said... We said northern africa enslaved whites and we had to go to war to get them to stop... this is true... what does that have to do with the number that survived or live there today? I mean I made no assertions about that so no matter what the answer, how does that relate to if what I said was bullshit or not?
> They were act of ship piracy, yes! The European were the ones taking north African for slaves thought out history from the Roman Empire to recent European colonization of North Africa.
I mean the ship piracy certainly was a source of the slavery industry in norther africa... but white slaves were very much documented and a historical fact fromt he period.
> The slave trade has been forced to many African nations back then as they are now force to sell their natural resources for cheap.
Forced is a matter of opinion... These were wholly native blacks operating it locally, capturing, enslaving and selling other blacks. Obviously whites did come and buy those blacks, and that money is what encouraged the trade. But when those whites set off and sailed again those black people that remained, free black people, kept the business going until the next ship arrived.
> Classic history whitewash to justify the massive industrial scale of the European international slave trade.
I mean if you want to call actual historic facts white washing... go ahead... everything I said was true.
I notice again you talk about scale, and thats valid, at no point did I suggest the less populace nations with fewer resources were able to scale at anywhere near white nations... probably not... but also largely irrelevant. Per capita it was more or less the same, whites arent guilty just for being more industrial or there being more of them.
We can argue back and forth all day about history.
> notice again you talk about scale, and thats valid, at no point did I suggest the less populace nations with fewer resources were able to scale at anywhere near white nations… probably not… but also largely irrelevant. Per capita it was more or less the same, whites arent guilty just for being more industrial or there being more of them.
We can agree that scale matter a lot, whether in terms of slave trade impact on the European global dominance with a large network of slave colonies, or recent massive scale of use fossil fuels, the wars to control that trade and it's impact on the planet in terms of climate change.
It seems like that the **white European Elite** greed has no limit until the destruction of the planet. Ether by nukes or climate change.
> We can argue back and forth all day about history.
We can. And considering the gross misrepresentation of history you seem to be selling, I suspect we probably should.
> We can agree that scale matter a lot, whether in terms of slave trade impact on the European global dominance with a large network of slave colonies, or recent massive scale of use fossil fuels, the wars to control that trade and it’s impact on the planet in terms of climate change.
Scale matters in terms of effect, sure, but lets go back to your original claim being debunked:
> But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology.
The truth of this statement has **nothing** to do with scale. So while scale may "matter a lot" due to societal impact (and it does) that still has no relevance to the argument in debate at the moment.
>But Human considering others as subhuman or even another race, this is white European Elite Ideology.
>The truth of this statement has nothing to do with scale. So while scale may “matter a lot” due to societal impact (and it does) that still has no relevance to the argument in debate at the moment.
I still stand with that statement, because I can bring you many quotes from so many prominent white European Elite(Philosophers, politicians, rules, writer, etc) that make claim.
I challenge you bring quotes from prominent Elite from North Africa, middle eat, south America, that make that claim.
I truly believe that the master race Ideology is purely European origin.
Note:(Ideologies tend to spread, so other nations i.e Japan embracing that ideology does’t make it less European).
> I still stand with that statement, because I can bring you many quotes from so many prominent white European Elite(Philosophers, politicians, rules, writer, etc) that make claim.
You dont see the fallacy of logic there?
You are claiming "Only X does Y".. and then go on to effectively say "I can prove it by giving examples of X doing Y"... That would only prove that X does Y, it is the "only" part you need to prove.
So if for every single one of your examples of a white man treating a non-white as lesser, if I could match each one with a historic example of a non-white person doing that to another, then do we agree you'd be wrong? If you dont agree then do you see why your approach here doesnt prove your point?
> I challenge you bring quotes from prominent Elite from North Africa, middle eat, south America, that make that claim.
I'd be happy to, but before I waste my energy what is the exact number of prominent non-white people doing this do I need to actually quote for you before you agree I have proven you wrong? I mean, I need to know what the rules are if you wanna go this route.
> Note:(Ideologies tend to spread, so other nations i.e Japan embracing that ideology does’t make it less European).
Well at least you moved the goal post before I bothered... So now your saying no matter how many quotes I give you of elite non-whites looking down on other races you can always play the "well the idea originated from a white guy at some point" game and invalidate those quotes arbitrarily? I hope your seeing your biases now and how you even set the rules up knowing you will be proven wrong and giving yourself a backdoor... Because even actual evidence now you can just hand wave away with no proof.
But ya know what, sure, lets do this.... Examples of non-whites considering other races as lesser than them, genetically racially inferior, subhuan etc.
* cast system - Specifically and explicitly designed so as to legally and personally judge people as lesser based on who they are born to (genetics). Fundementally and culturally an example. There are over 20 non-white nations, probably many more, that have employed caste systems in relatively recent history. This includes India, the elite most certainly have supported this system.
* Ghandi, this elite non-white has quite the history of making statements about blacks where he treats them as inferior. In particular he would call them "Kaffir" (functionally similar to the english word "nigger") and would often refer to them as savages.:
"...in the same category as the half-heathen Native and confine him to Locations, and subject him to the harsher laws by which the Transvaal Kaffir is governed." --Ghandi
* The elites in Korean state media said the following about obama: "“still has the figure of a monkey while the human race has evolved through millions of years,” Another clear example of non-white elite seeing another race as genetically lesser.
We havent even gotten out of asia yet.... Shall I keep going?
> caste system
it's horrible system, but It's more of a Hindu social class system then master race based ideology, it's Hindu India's version of European feudalism system.
Look up how the British exploited that system to divide and conquer India.
> Ghandi
His is British educated, that's more of the British education racist undertone.
Note, Kaffir has noting similar with "nigger".
In Islam, Kaffir mean someone who rejected the believe in God. It's more like Atheist. It is big deal when someone is labeled as kaffir, because the punishment is death.
> Korean state media
I believe that american media said more racist claims about Obama then Korean state media.
This has nothing to do with Korean culture, beliefs or treatment of other civilizations.
QED, totally called you finding excuses, and invalid ones at that
@voidabyss nothing personal though btw
As for QED, thats vbecause i called you out on your bad argument before you even made it, and then you made it.. so yes you demonstrated out the very bad-take you were going to make and did.... all that was needed was QED
In the reply I left right before the one where I answered you, I spent a whole reply explaining how you already framed the question with back doors for you to make excuses against any evidence presented against you... and you did exactly that:
@freemo I just read it, you haven't @ me on that reply, was that on purpose to prove your point?
@voidabyss No that was accidental... but i should have :)
And just to drive your point home... notice how you moved the goal post.. when providing a direct quote from an elite non white that was clearly about a race being inferior (in this case either the korean news caster of Kim Jung who controls them, either being elite non-whites)... then you said "oh well its not a culture or beleif" or some nonsense... So now even quotes from elite non-whites, exactly what you requested, is invalid cause it doesnt represent the whole culture...
Man that goal post just goes wherever you feel like at the moment to prove those biases huh?
Wow, you really think you won an argument quoting the North Korea's communist dictatorship state media propaganda.
I am not here arguing for the sake of winning a debate, but to see other perspectives on this matter. When I said the master race ideology has European origins that's factually true, you can read more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race
> The Oxford English Dictionary records that William J. Grayson used the phrase "master race" in his poem The Hireling and the Slave (1855):
For these great ends hath Heaven’s supreme command
Brought the black savage from his native land,
Trains for each purpose his barbarian mind,
By slavery tamed, enlightened, and refined;
Instructs him, from a master-race, to draw
Wise modes of polity and forms of law,
Imbues his soul with faith, his heart with love,
Shapes all his life by dictates from above
It's not about moving the goal post, it seems to me you want to diminish European White Supremacy impact on the world over the last two centuries.
> Wow, you really think you won an argument quoting the North Korea’s communist dictatorship state media propaganda.
**You** are the one who set the rules of engagement. I even pointed out before I played the game by your rules that the rules were absurd... but I did it anyway... I followed the rules, proved you wrong by your rules, and pointed out youd move the goal post (in part because the rules were stupid)... and well here we are.
> I am not here arguing for the sake of winning a debate, but to see other perspectives on this matter. When I said the master race ideology has European origins that’s factually true, you can read more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_r
then you are doing an absolutely horrific job by using such intellectual dishonest tactics.
> It’s not about moving the goal post, it seems to me you want to diminish European White Supremacy impact on the world over the last two centuries.
There you go making shit up again that has no relationship to anything I said...
Not **once** did I in any way say white supremacy or racism wasnt real, expansive, or a major issue. In fact I said **nothing** to diminish it. What I did point out is that horrific racism has been the norm across the globe and is not the exclusive domain of the whites... this doesnt diminish the evil the whites have done int he least, it only points out it is in no way unique to white people.
As I pointed out when I saw your intellectual dishonest argument coming.. you quoting white supremacy till the cows come home do **nothing** to advance this discussion because white supremacy was never in question.. the fact that you need to pretend like it was and argue against fantasies of arguments I never made is quite telling to say the least.
> you are the ones who set the rules of engagement. I even pointed out before I played the game by your rules that the rules were absurd… but I did it anyway… I followed the rules, proved you wrong by your rules, and pointed out youd move the goal post (in part because the rules were stupid)… and well here we are.
I didn't set anything up, this is a classic straw-man argument **you're** making up.
I made the claim that the master race ideology has European origins, I was planning to bring quotes from prominent European leaders, philosophers promoting that ideology. I didn't yet. I just linked to Wikipedia which gives a good introduction to this subject.
>Not once did I in any way say white supremacy or racism wasnt real, expansive, or a major issue. In fact I said nothing to diminish it. What I did point out is that horrific racism has been the norm across the globe and is not the exclusive domain of the whites… this doesnt diminish the evil the whites have done int he least, it only points out it is in no way unique to white people.
I read this more like CYA, then a valid argument against white supremacy. Racism and slavery are aspects of white supremacy, some nations have practice those to some marginal extent compared to white, sure. But I sill believe that master race ideology has European roots in a sense that European Philosophers, scientists, leaders, have claimed that some European men are better genetically evolved compared to others and that basically they should rule the whole world.
And please don't get me started on Eugenics.
> As I pointed out when I saw your intellectual dishonest argument coming.. you quoting white supremacy till the cows come home do nothing to advance this discussion because white supremacy was never in question.. the fact that you need to pretend like it was and argue against fantasies of arguments I never made is quite telling to say the least.
I don't make or engage with dishonest arguments.
White supremacy stems from the master race ideology which has European origins, that pretty much sums up the discussion.
> I didn’t set anything up, this is a classic straw-man argument you’re making up.
You defining the rules of engagement:
https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167763581276244
Me pointing out their stupid:
https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167763581276244
> I made the claim that the master race ideology has European origin
No, you claimed it was **purely** of european origin (in other words **exclusively** white)
> I still stand with that statement, because I can bring you many quotes from so many prominent white European Elite(Philosophers, politicians, rules, writer, etc) that make claim.
>
> I challenge you bring quotes from prominent Elite from North Africa, middle eat, south America, that make that claim.
> I truly believe that the master race Ideology is **purely** European origin.
As is **Very** clear here the point of debate was **not** if white europeans are racist, I concede thatpoint many times and never once disagreed... As I pointed out and the point you yourself claimed was that it was **purely** of european origin. Something you absolutely failed to prove and were quite clearly disoproven on.
> I was planning to bring quotes from prominent European leaders, philosophers promoting that ideology. I didn’t yet. I just linked to Wikipedia which gives a good introduction to this subject.
Good thing you didnt waste your time doing that because it would have done nothing to advance your argument since 1) it was never in question that white europeans are racist and 2) no matter how many racist quotes you have of white people it does nothing to prove it is **exclusively** white, so you would have wasted your time, especially seeing as this was disproven.
> I read this more like CYA, then a valid argument against white supremacy.
At no point have I made **any** attempt at an argument against white supremecy.. In fact you have said this like a dozen times and every time I have explicitly told you I didnt disagree with this...
Why do you keep insisting on arguing against ghosts of arguments you fabricate and I never said?
> I don’t make or engage with dishonest arguments.
>
> White supremacy stems from the master race ideology which has European origins, that pretty much sums up the discussion.
Keep telling yourself that. Literally everything here is not just a dishonest argument, its **over the top** dishonest.. you keep fabricating an argument I didnt say, and then argue against it, and then cry foul when your called out on it and just keep doing it.
This is probably one of the more intellectually dishonest conversations I've ever had.. the only ones that might come close is your anti-vaxx posts which thankfully you've calmed down on.
You are over complicating a very simple questions and making up debate fallacies and claiming dishonest arguments to shutdown discussion the same way you did with the mRNA vaccines which has been proven that they are neither safe nor effective(so no point to further that debate).
I pretty sure we can agree that Abrahamic religions originated from the middle east, Communism originated from Europe or Buddhism originated from Asia.
So, the question here is simple:
**What's the origin of the master race ideology?**
First, we have to agree what is the master race ideology?
Simple, do you agree with the Wikipedia definition and its historical background?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race
Another question simple question is:
**Do you believe that white European are genetically superior to other humans?**
(Please answer this question)
If a white European has that believe, they fell for the master race ideology which is the backbone of white supremacy.
>As is Very clear here the point of debate was not if white europeans are racist, I concede thatpoint many times and never once disagreed… As I pointed out and the point you yourself claimed was that it was purely of european origin. Something you absolutely failed to prove and were quite clearly disoproven on.
The question here **is not** the what's the origin of racism or slavery.
My understanding of your claims that many nations around the world have some aspects of racism and slavery in their culture therefore the Master race Ideology is not purely European.
https://qoto.org/@freemo/111167309620923619
If that's your claim, I respectfully disagree.
Limiting the master race ideology to racism and slavery diminishes many horrible aspects of it that are **exclusively** white European.
One point I want to make very clear here:
I never claimed nor I believe that **white europeans are racist**. That's borderline racist against whites to make that claim.
My claim is that white European Elite (Philosophers, scientists, leaders) started the Master race Ideology.
I believe those elite represent the 1% minority, and that majority of white European are victim of that Ideology as well as many nations around the world that was exploited by those minority white European Elite.
https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167278359841915
https://qoto.org/@voidabyss/111167462849461879
>I just want to add that the majority of white European are the victim of the white European Elite ideology, through out history i.e (WWI, WWII) and up to this day.
My questions are simple, fair and in good faith, I can clear up any misinterpretation you want.
Claiming that I engage in dishonest conversation that's your own projection, I don't why you do it? In my opinion it's your way to shutdown the conversation.
@voidabyss @freemo It is quite obvious that if you pick an ideology that arose 'somewhere', you will find that it arose 'somewhere'.
It is quite obvious that if you pick an ideology that arose 'somewhere', you will find that it arose 'somewhere'.
However, there are similar ideologies, such as the racist Bantu ideology, which treats non-Bantu people (such as Pygmies) as subhuman, which led to slavery and several genocides.
Also, the German Nazi 'master race ideology' has nothing to do with whiteness.
Like several other 'master race ideologies' from Europe: Turanism or Sarmatism, the Nazi ideology was obsessed with Iranian heritage; on the opposite side of the scale were other 'whites' such as Jews, Slavs, Roma.
> Also, the German Nazi ‘master race ideology’ has nothing to do with whiteness.
Do you mean that skin color has nothing to do with the Nazi's master race ideology?
Nothing with 'whiteness'. Skin colour was ANYTHING but accidental. White Slavs, black Sub-Saharan Africans and white or brown Roma were equally 'sub-human'.
White Nordics, yellow Japanese and black Indian Aryans were the 'master race'.
@voidabyss You havent poked through any of them.. you made some astoundingly bad hand waving.. but thats about it..
You tried to call the 20+ caste systems, notorious for extradinary racism and oppression "just a social system"... even when today with the caste system abolished in india the racism continues and is well known...
You've blamed elite non-whites for being "british educated" using the goal-post moving approach I called you out on before you even did it.
And then, you didnt even really attempt to make a sincere effort to address the "black people are monkeys" comment just saying some nonsense about how white people were racist too so that is some sort of counter argument...
Like literally you just abandoned even basic common sense to make a no-facts based nonsensical hand wavy excuse that literally poked 0 holes in anything.