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@SecondJon My stance is this. I dont think its a bad thing if you personally are patriotic to your country or feel a great deal of pride or importance behind the pledge. However the second you condemn others for not agreeing with your form of patriotism thats a problem. Never mind the irony of it being contrary to the very thing america originally stood for...
@freemo
It may be, it may not be. A lot of people have served, fought, and had friends and family die for what they believe the flag represents, so an entertainer communicating that everything that flag represents is offensive is offensive to them. I think that offending them must have been the point, it was just done for a reaction, then people are offended by the reaction and everyone involved becomes a self righteous victim. I think football is silly, politicizing it is silly, reacting at the reactions of others reactions to it is silly, none of it productive.
@4of92000
@freemo @4of92000
If constructive, useful, change was desired, I think a better approach would have been to embrace the flag and call people to the ideals even they believe it represents, but instead we just have virtue signaling and mutual taking offense.
But I'm not a public figure making millions to entertain people in one of the few venues where they've always been able to reach across to others from all sides of issues and connect as one community over sports. So destroying that environment and turning it into a polarizing event hasn't ever been an option for me to consider. I'm also not the president who took the opportunity to amplify the polarization. I'm just a non sports fan who is sad to see the sports fans lose that reach across environment.
What bothers me is that if we kneel, it's incredibly significant, deeply meaningful...
@SecondJon Also, cant it just be significant to some or not significant to others? Or even just significant to different people in different ways. I'm not so sure the world needs to be tso black and white as you suggest.
What bothers me is that if we kneel, it's incredibly significant, deeply meaningful...
@freemo
Yes, that's what I mean. If people actually thought about it, we'd see that some see the flag as representing the principles of America's founding as they understand them: all created equal, with inalienable rights, etc., that we continue to work toward.
Others would say it symbolizes the status quo which shows we have a long way to go to reach those ideals.
Then we could agree that we all seek the same ideals and understand that we may think the other is "wrong" about what they think the flag symbolizes, but could agree on the pursuit of truth, justice, and the American Way as it is supposed to be.
But posturing and virtue signaling seems to be what we're limited to.
@4of92000
What bothers me is that if we kneel, it's incredibly significant, deeply meaningful...
@4of92000
, and we're believing in something even if it means risking everything.
If you disagree, then you should know your disagreement is over nothing. There's no meaning, no significance there. Why are you even talking?
I'd like to be consistent. Either it's not meaningful and both the protesters and those protesting the protesters are all doing nothing, just doing it loudly, or else it is significant and both sides should be heard out.
I suspect the reality is more nuanced : it's not the fabric of the flag that's meaningful, it's what it stands for as a symbol of the country, and what standing for the anthem means of doesn't. But this would lead to meaningful conversations, which the public seems adverse to.
@freemo