Demosthenes @Demosthenes@qoto.org

@korewatsumi this was indicated in the document you provided. A section of the orbitofrontal lobe(involved in executive functioning) is more active in non-pedophiles. There have been instances where damage to this love caused pedophilic behavior in some.

Just because something is inherent doesn't mean it is right or inevitable. Humans have historically been violent, murdering millions. We have raped and pillaged our enemies forever. That doesn't mean that such behavior should be embraced or supported in modern society.

@korewatsumi yes, I read the whole thing. It explained how there were neurodevelopmental differences in pedophiles, child sexual offenders, and subgroups of each. It explained how there are genetic factors and that it has been found to happen in the lines of some families. None of this precludes conditioning.

The brains of taxi cab drivers have a significantly larger part of their spacial memory cortex. That didn't happen out of the blue, but by repeatedly using those parts of their brain to memorize places. Brain structure is affected by genetics, inputs, and environment.

@korewatsumi no no, the opposite wasn't the case. What it says is that there is research to indicate this, but not enough yet to be absolutely sure.

"due to lack of stringent methodology that includes proper control groups, small experimental or treatment effect sizes, and lacking knowledge of effect duration, these theories are not well supported."

More research needs to be done on this, but nothing has come yet that invalidates it, at least not that I saw.

@jeff@pl.i2p.rocks @lolitasyndrome exactly! If there could be a MAP support group that was all about managing their urges and seeking help together then I would be fine with it, but a MAP community will inevitably devolve into something very non-productive.

@korewatsumi my statement came from the link you gave. I'll look into one or two of those links, but probably not all of them, lol.

"The first theories to account for sexual behavior disorder associated with pedophilia suggested masturbatory conditioning [e.g., Laws and Marshall (1990)] or childhood sexual abuse (Freund et al., 1990; Fedoroff and Pinkus, 1996) as causal explanations. However, as Seto purports, due to lack of stringent methodology that includes proper control groups, small experimental or treatment effect sizes, and lacking knowledge of effect duration, these theories are not well supported. Beyond this, the majority of victims are female, whereas the majority of offenders are male, and if conditioning were the only logical theory to explain the etiology of pedophilia, it stands to reason that there would be more female pedophiles than are clinically seen (Seto, 2008; Jespersen et al., 2009b). However, a study by Klucken et al. (2009) showed that men are more easily conditioned through exposure to sexual stimuli than are women, casting significant doubt on the conditioning theory as it applies to female pedophiles. Currently, there is a strong push to understand the brain’s role in sexual preference development, particularly as it relates to pedophilia."

Laws and social norms exist to moderate the behavior of individuals so that society as a whole thrives. If we don't suppress harmful behavior then it will destabilize society.

This line that shouldn't be crossed is obvious in things like assault, rape, and other actions that directly disrupt people's autonomy. The line gets blurrier and more difficult to define when actions indirectly disrupt autonomy.

It's also important to note the effect of social media on violent social contagion. I was on 4chan between the years of 2011 and 2013. At the time, they formed a community that supported and glorified violence, school shootings, and eventually Nazis. I'm positive that such contagion contributed significantly to both our school shootings and current political instability.

There is a lot of disagreement on the need of censorship of certain communities. Mastodon itself was created partly as a response to censorship in Twitter. Because of this disagreement, I'd like to start a conversation.

Do you think any form of censorship should belong here? Why or why not?

@jeff@pl.i2p.rocks @lolitasyndrome ha! This is definitely a flaw in my statement, thank you.

MAPs should be supported individually, absolutely. They should seek help and manage the way they are.
I fear the effects of community support though. In a MAP community, there will be those to embrace and find pride in their identity. There will be outliers to embrace child abuse and could find a following in a community. THAT is what I fear.

@korewatsumi again thank you for discussing this with me btw. It can be difficult to talk to people with different opinions like this, especially when it involves your own identity.

@korewatsumi it did differentiate between the two, but it also indicated that there was overlap between PD and pedophilia, and they indicated that conditioning was involved in the development of pedophilia. That means that by breaking the conditioning, we may either prevent cases of pedophilia or possibly reverse it(though there's no evidence of this admittedly).

If we provide a community for pedophilia, then we remove the shame from it. That would lead to more people acting out their desires, which would increase conditioning and thus pedophilia. If instead we shame it, we can push people to either avoid such stimuli or suppress their urges, either through therapy or medications.

@korewatsumi they are important because they indicate a significant overlap between pedophilia and child sexual assault.

I just finished reading the document you gave btw. Thank you, it was very relevant to the conversation. I fail to see how it invalidated anything I said though. There is still some research that indicates that conditioning may contribute to the development of pedophilia in men, though more research is needed. There is also an overlap between pedophilia and child abuse. Given this, it makes sense to reduce stimuli that may lead to conditioning, which is by child abuse and exposure to child porn.

@Zia disagree. If someone comes up to me and stabs me, I'm not going to turn around and hug them.

Laws and social norms exist to moderate the behavior of individuals so that society as a whole thrives. If we don't suppress harmful behavior then it will destabilize society.

This line that shouldn't be crossed is obvious in things like assault, rape, and other actions that directly disrupt people's autonomy. The line gets blurrier and more difficult to define when actions indirectly disrupt autonomy.

It's also important to note the effect of social media on violent social contagion. I was on 4chan between the years of 2011 and 2013. At the time, they formed a community that supported and glorified violence, school shootings, and eventually Nazis. I'm positive that such contagion contributed significantly to both our school shootings and current political instability. I don't want such contagion to amplify childhood sexual assault.

That said, I'm still reading the source from the other user who posted, so I'm not quite up-to-date with this issue.

@korewatsumi thank you, I am reading it now and I do appreciate the discussion. I'm still in the process of reading it, but I wanted to note a couple important parts.

About 50% of people who rape a child have a sexual preference for children. The other half have an impulse control disorder.

Consuming child porn is considered committing a sexual offense.

"As a study deriving from the German Dunkelfeld Prevention Project concluded, among 345 pedophiles admitting one or more sexual offenses against children, 37% have solely used child pornography, 21% committed exclusively hands-on sexual contacts with a minor, and 42% have committed both (Neutze et al., 2012)."

@korewatsumi @lolitasyndrome if I'm wrong or there's a flaw in my logic, then I really would appreciate you explaining to me that flaw. I love to learn.
If instead this just struck a nerve but you don't know why, I implore you to think upon the logic that justifies your feelings.

@nil I feel for pedos who try to change their ways. They can't help whatever mental development led to their attraction to children, but if they shirk their desires and try to change their tendencies then they're tolerable and inevitable in society.
To be an unabashed, proud pedo is like being a proud rapist or murderer. You damage society and hurt those around you, and experience pride in it? Absolutely pathetic.

@nil but seriously, if you actually have a good argument for why I'm wrong, I would appreciate you relaying that. I'm interested in your thoughts.

@nil @lolitasyndrome what an erudite and well explained argument. You've swayed me.

@lolitasyndrome the fact that you would publicly state this is stunning to me. I feel sorry for you in a way, but I hope a community of this identity group never forms here.
Echo chambers and communities provide validation and support for certain ways to live. It allows political capital to accrue, leading to legal changes. This has happened consistently with the LGBTQ community, who has seen a massive rise in social acceptance.
LGBTQ affects people who can consent. Minors cannot consent due to their underdeveloped prefrontal cortex and compliance to authority figures. Because of this, MAPs should not be supported.
It is not a good thing to be a MAP. Please seek therapy if you haven't already, and for god's sake never act out on your impulses.

I think I got food poisoning yesterday evening from some chicken fried steak I ate yesterday. Its diameter was larger than my head!! We'll see if it was worth it though. 😭😭💩💩

@jjspano@fosstodon.org oh wow! I'm going to have to visit a local russian market soon, those look unreal!