@freemo Of course the goal should be to minimize death. I refer to situations where people use horrible back-alley solutions and die from that which could have been prevented by ensuring a decent separation between church and state.
🇳🇱
@IntegralDuChemin Ahh i see, that is indeed tragic. Though im not sure it has anything to do with church and state. Most people I know whgo are against abortions do not invoke religious reasoning behind their stance
@IntegralDuChemin I don't understand. I also don't understand the position you're trying to imply with this. In favor of or against abortion restructions.
@stevenroose Against abortion restrictions
@stevenroose I'm furious that there are still women dying from this shit and even more that the Trump administration restricts access to contraception in poor countries only to gain evangelical votes. The Christian Right should finally go back to the swamp where it came from. No other developed country teaches abstinence instead of using contraception to prevent STI. No other country in the developed world has a teenage pregnancy rate this high and no other country sees climbing maternal mortality rates, lacks universal basic healthcare etc.
The richest nation in the world fails at delivering decent living conditions for much of its female population and exports this lunacy successfully to other countries. That's a complete desaster and even worse - it is preventable and completely against science.
To be fair that isnt a very apt picture of america. While I do admit there are issues, legitimate ones, most of us are all taught in school in sex ed to use condoms, abstinence is rarely taught, and generally we are told to be responsible and understand the consequences of sex (and thus why contraception is imortant).
Even among the religious condoms are the norm. The stories you hear of teaching abstinence is an edge case, not the norm, among religious or otherwise.
@freemo @stevenroose May I ask in which state you grew up and when? Texas in the 2000s is different from California today or New York in the 80s. Only thing I like about abstinence teaching is that it includes how to be strong and say no, which could be communicated more in Europe as well. Honestly I'm glad if the horror stories you read are only a small part of a big picture but no German teacher would even suggest teaching intelligent design instead or along evolution. Hope, I'm not ranting too much, I don't want to be banned from qoto as I really like this instance 😃
Pennsylvania in the 80s. Though I have traveled and gotten a chance to know the culture in many states in the USA from the south, to the west, to the midwest.
@freemo @stevenroose Teenage pregnancy rates are in decline right now but I'm wondering what the Trump administration will deliver in the next years. Title X is a thing voted down by Democratic presidents and voted up by Republicans.
Depends, I dont think youll ever see anyone pushing to make condoms or birth control illegal. The real issue is if they will allow health insurance to cover it. There is also potential for abortion to have limitations placed on it, but unlikely to make it illegal.
I'm all for any solution that strikes a balance between the valid points of both extremes on this argument. I dont think abortion should be illegal but it should be extremely limited, and certainly not up to the point of viability (or anywhere close to that), but I also think that onlyw orks if contraception and pregnancy tests are free and if abortion, when legal, is also free (included in insurance)
@freemo @stevenroose I respect your opinion although I would outlaw any ban on abortion in the first trimester and then be more liberal on allowing it up to short before birth. Maybe I'm too radical on that one but no restriction has ever helped on that one. I have not had an abortion yet and if I were over 2 months I would probably carry to term and then give it up to adoption. But it is not on me to impose my point of view on others. I can understand that aborting children up to viability and beyond must be hard and I would never do it myself except. But I cannot imagine that a woman chooses abortion lightheaded.
I can understand your view, but obviously disagree.
One needs to protect the decision not just of the mother, but of the unborn child, who doesnt have a voice. Ideally the rights of each should be preseved.
In my mind once a child develops a brain then it has a right to legal protection, within reason. That happens at about a month and a half to two months.
So for me the laws should be something like this
1) Abortion only legal in the first 2 months, after that there must be significant risk to the life of the mother to get an exception.
2) all legal abortions will be tax-payer funded, as well as condoms and birth control
3) PRegnancy tests will also be free and tax-payer funded.
Those three points are the only way I can see to preserve the right to life of all parties involved without creating unmitigated circumstances outside of the womans control, or denying her her right to abort.
@freemo @stevenroose I had no idea that brain development were that fast. In that case you might have a point. Concerning the rest I fully agree.
@freemo @stevenroose I'd love to travel the states once. The Trump administration did at least one thing right in increasing funding for quantum technology research so maybe getting a visum for said research is possible.
The states is a nice place to visit but the people in europe are better IMO (well except the brits :) )
@freemo @stevenroose I wouldn't want to work there for the rest of my life. Every time I read stuff as "healthcare or pension benefits" or "best maternal work leave laws in the states" I'm disappointed when it is still much worse than having no job in Germany. But I assume that they manage at least to pay decent benefits to researchers in key positions if they want to be competitive. You don't get the best researchers in quantum cryptography (not claiming that I am one but there are few worldwide) if you don't offer more than an average IT company in #Berlin. And yes, I am talking about quantum where everyone says the future of national security depends on it etc etc (even though I don't see that yet).
There is a lot to be disapointed about in the states. But there is also a lot of disinformation. It comes from the fact that its a polarized country and everything is political, where politics is involved so are lies.
Dont get me wrong there ARE huge issues in those areas int he USA (and in europe too actually), you are just going to have a hard time getting an accurate picture of what those are.
@freemo Can you please give me some updates? When did the States become that polarized? And where am I mistaken with my claims? I never claimed that Americans are against selling birth control but still abstinence is covered in schools all over the country, right?
@IntegralDuChemin I'm not saying your mistaken, just that what you hear doesnt reflect reality to well from media is all. For example while healthcare has issues there are many ways in which it is far superior to europe too, but you are unlikely to hear about that.
Polarization started after 911 and has largely been on the rise since then.
Abstinence being taught in schools isnt the norm. Im sure its taught in some schools but i never met anyone in america who was personally taught abstinence in school. So its not a common pattern at least.
@freemo Ah I see. In which respect is healthcare better in the States? Are there things available which are not available in Europe given the same financial resources?
@IntegralDuChemin Well for example wait times. In europe wait time, even when its critical to ones recovery, is astronomical (even in the countries with the lowest wait time, Netherlands).
America also tends to have more rigerous pre-emtptive tests that catch things like cancer. It is typical in america to get routine blood tests and other exams they dont tend to do as frequently if at all in europe.
America also tends to have better survivability rates on many diseases (but not all). For example when it comes to cancer treatment the survivability is highest in the USA.
@freemo Ok, that is REAL news for me and with real, I mean really something I have NEVER heard before. Thank you very much for that - I am amazed when I get information that I really had not gotten anyhow before. At least for Germany I'd make a difference between public health care and private health care. Private health care finances the system, insurances pay 2.3 times the price it normally costs. In exchange I never had to wait for any appointment more than a few days and if it were not for private insurance a family member's cancer would not have been detected. They made this CT which they did not consider necessary when they discovered the cancer. So yes, thanks to that she is still alive. Still it sucks that I have to pay for everything in advance which is ok for me as I got savings but I would not recommend it for other students.
@IntegralDuChemin I cant speak to germany but I know statisically speaking the Netherlands has the shortest average wait time of any europan country. Not only is it much higher in europe but I live int he netherlands and had a spinal injury and my wait time was so long my condition degraded when a simple 5 minute treatment would have potentially saved me from surgery.
In the netherlands i have never had a wait time shorter than a month for seeing a specialist. I had to first see a GP (who cant do much) then they need to give a referral, then when you hear back you get an appointment in a month.
Are you sure you arent confusing wait time with a GP and wait time for specialists, surgeries, and other major needs?
@freemo I am not. I had to see a specialist today. Called this morning, got an appointment although she has enough other stuff to do. You're right - for the general population it is the same here as for you there. We have a system with two different categories here as mentioned before. If I were among those with "normal" insurance I'd have exactly the same problem you had.
@IntegralDuChemin Ahh yea thats fair, im only considering normal insurance not extra insurance
@freemo It is no extra insurance. I am insured this way because my parents are working for the state and thus had to pick this special type of insurance with all its perks and disadvantages. Perks are the reduced wait time and the fact that more stuff is covered. Disadvantage is that the insurance is much more expensive and family members are not insured. Even if I wanted I could not get "normal" insurance as a student. I have to wait until I work normally.
@IntegralDuChemin Ahh I see
Generally i find all the forms of insurance we have today (or at least the ones we hear about) are horribly broken in one way or another.
Which is ashame, everyone is so big on socialized health insurance or free market health insurance no one is bothering to realize there are other choices that, at least in theory, would likely work much better.
@IntegralDuChemin To give you an idea of the numbers if you count all people in germany and the usa that neede3d to wait 2 months or more for a specialist the USAit is half as common as in germany, which is a huge difference
@IntegralDuChemin BTW germany is still one of the lowest on wait times. it is only 40% more common than in the usa its 4.8x more common to wait 2 months or more (1/3 of all patients)
Sex ed that is lacking I do hear quite often from americans, in my case it was mostly biological and STD based as well. They generally dont even touch on the moral responsibility of sex or why. I will say though they covered condom usage in my school.
In fact I grew up in the 80's (and early 90s for high school) and we were even given free condoms at school as part of our sex ed. They would just hand them out.
@freemo @stevenroose According to the stats I read it got worse in the 90s and 2000s at least in the rural south.
Well yea, it is a view point which isnt non-existant. But even in the south its not as pervasive as it might appear to an outsider. I never met anyone in the south who thinks condoms should be illegal.
@freemo @stevenroose I never claimed that. That would be quite Comstock lawy... - but I never found anyone in Germany or France who ever heard of intelligent design or ever had the idea of not using decent contraception. I have to admit though that I have been dating in the hacker scene ever since which might reduce the number of idiots. But apart from one mathematician who didn't know his size and would thus make a decent involuntary sperm donor my dudes were cool <3
I never met a creationist in america face to face either, not one who thinks the earth is literally 6000 years old. Yes they do exist but they are extremely rare.
@IntegralDuChemin How far does that logic extend? No matter what solution we have in play someone will die some of the time, Shouldnt the goal be to minimize death not eliminate it?