https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/25/political-protect-kids-james-younger/

@realcaseyrollins
Ah yes, dangerous gender transition. This seems like a rather biased source.

@jump_spider They're biased but they're not wrong

@realcaseyrollins
What's dangerous about transitioning?

@jump_spider Firstly, it often consists of genital mutilation, and sometimes includes taking a dangerous level of opposite-sex hormones. Apart from that, people who transition often regret their decision later and wish to reverse it.

But some people have the procedure done and are fine, ignoring the self-injury aspect. Although it's morally wrong, it's more important to address these procedures targeting kids. If a kid has these procedures done, his or her bone plates will not develop properly.

@realcaseyrollins
What academic research has lead you to suggest that most of us regret medical transition?

In what moral framework is medical transition "morally wrong"?

What is the functional difference between someone who pays professional to surgically remove part of their cheek such that their teeth are visible (a well known though obviously extreme form of aesthetic body modification) and genital reconstruction surgery? Is one person's idea of self-mutilation not clearly another person's idea of self-actualization?

What medical research has lead you to suggest that hormone replacement therapy for medical transition dangerous?

Have you considered that a desire to detransition may have less to do with personal regret and more to do with how those of us who do not "pass" even after medical transition are treated by others?

To be frank concerning children who wish to medically transition, because they have not reached the legal age of majority and medical transition being still very much bound in legal approval, how would you suggest a child to be able to pursue medical transition at all? A 16-year-old girl can choose to have unprotected sex and there are many who believe she should accept the lifelong consequences and responsibilities that may result from her choice; why should that be different for a transgender child?

@jump_spider

Health risks: https://youtu.be/Eaq6kbk0LZ4 (skip to 3:51 for the scientific evidence)

On regretting sex transition surgery:
https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740

Also chopping off a penis is different than ripping out your cheek. Sure, you've lost a part of your body that helps you eat by keeping food in your mouth, but at least you can still eat.

If you get castrated, you cannot procreate. End of story. It completely removes a bodily function. It's more akin to getting two feet amputated.

@jump_spider Also being from America and supporting freedom I do this people should be able to "transition", no matter how unethical that might be. The age question is a good one. I see three logical views:

1. Age of consent. (At a certain age, you can make all self-affecting sexual choices.)

2. When puberty is over. (This means at around ages 10-14 for girls and 12-16 for boys. They know what being their birth gender is like and can decide if they don't like it.)

@jump_spider

3. When their brain's developed. (This means around 25 y/o. One can now decide if they want their brain to remain the same or be affected by "transition" surgery.)

@realcaseyrollins
Strictly anecdotally, many of us report emotional and general psychological trauma experienced from the effects of natal puberty. With respect, we know exactly what it's like to be the gender we are; puberty typically only affirms it. If a child expresses genuine interest in suppressing their natal puberty, why should a parent not be able to consent on their behalf to puberty hormone blocker treatment, the same way a parent can consent on a child's behalf to get a lip piercing?

@jump_spider P.S. puberty actually does not affirm it, 75% to 90% of children who say they want to transition decide to stick with their birth sex after they finish puberty.

@realcaseyrollins
Citation, please

@jump_spider https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth

@realcaseyrollins
I consider this source to be largely unbiased, thank you. This particular link discusses the scientific validity of the claim you made as well as serious scientific methodological concerns re: how desistance is experimentally operationalized. In short, the claim that an overwhelming or even simple majority of transgender children stop being trans is spurious at best.

@jump_spider

Has anyone bothered to actually weigh the trauma of not having the final say about your own body?

I am not trans, but I can relate rather indirectly. As a kid i had a deep rooted fear of needles, as im sure many kids do. I refused to get them no matter how needed it might be, but my mother insisted.

As a result she took me to a doctor and they strapped me down as I kicked and screamed and bit so they could draw blood. They eventually got the needle in me and I was too violent for them to get the vein and they gave up (might have helped that i kicked the doctor right in the balls as he tried to tie me up, no regrets). She tried this with a few other doctors all with the same result.

By the end of this ordeal, having no say over my own body, I was deeply fearful of all doctors even my own mother. I refused to go to a doctor, if she pulled up to a hospital or doctors office I would escape or tie myself into the car. To this day if i am in a hospital or doctors office i feel a sense of panic, which luckily I can overcome. But it is clear this violation of my body led to some degree of psychological harm.

I did later on have a doctor my mom brought me to who recognized this. He took me as his patient but made it clear to my mom he would refuse to do any treatment on me without my consent (and hers of course). When they needed to take blood and i refused he took a therapist type approach and isntead of forcing me let me know in the end it was up to me but also explained what that meant, the reprocutions i might face if i refused and some ways he could protentially help to make the expiernce better (including numbing agents). Eventually this worked and helped to offset a good deal of the trauma and eventually volunteers for the medical help I needed. Being on my terms and getting the last say was critical.

I think most children are far far more capable of rationalizing the future and the consequence of their actions that most people give them credit for.

@realcaseyrollins

@freemo
I applaud your sharing of your personal experience. As a trans adult, and from discussion with several dozens of trans people both in person and in several online communities, I can share that the systemic denial of one's own bodily autonomy is, in a word, *exhausting*. Radical critics paint trans adults as predatory wrt trans children, but their perspective ignores the simple truth that we remember vividly what it was like growing up.
@realcaseyrollins

@jump_spider

That is the single biggest driving thought in my own acceptance of children going through hormone therapy, body autonomy, combined with the fact that hormones are only fully effective pre-puberty, while they do work to some extent post-puberty they are far less effective and sometimes, especially in older adults, have no effect at all.

In the end the only one who will have to deal with the consequences is the child, so they should have the final say unless they have demonstrated (not through age but demonstrated) they are not of sound mind and body.

@realcaseyrollins

@freemo @jump_spider Why don't we let them smoke then?

@realcaseyrollins

That is a very good question. As a parent if a child smokes I feel you probably raised your child poorly. This is best addressed not by physically preventing them from smoking but by teaching them why it is a bad choice.

the fact is most parents dont raise their kids very well, and part of that is exactly that mentality of having the last say about their body. Most kids who go and smoke tobacoo likely do it in defiance for a parent who doesnt give the child the responsibility and teaching to make the choice correctly.

So yes in society we do prevent kids from smoking, but we have it alllll backwards.

@jump_spider

@freemo @jump_spider I like consistency. If a kid can't smoke or get a tat they shouldn't be able to make a bigger decision, like chopping off their private parts.

@realcaseyrollins
It is a common and malignant misconception that anyone of significance has ever advocated for full genital reconstruction surgery for a person under the age of majority
@freemo

@jump_spider @freemo Should parents be able to put a child under the age of majority through full genital reconstruction surgery?

And again this ignores the damage done by hormone suppression medication prior to puberty.

@realcaseyrollins

As we agreed the evidence is conflicting, some suggests it causes damage pre-puberty other evidence suggests it prevents damage. Since we already agreed to that you cant fall back on the idea that it causes damage, we already agreed we dont know, at least objectively.

As I covered earlier if hormone therapy helps it is only really fully effective pre-puberty. It will **not** have the same level of results post-puberty as pre-puberty that is the critical point here.

Genital reconstruction you can do later and no real harm done, it will be just as effective later on. So I'd say that generally that particular procedure should wait until a bit later in life. But hormone therapy is a very different beast and if it is be done, if it is to effective, it must be done pre-puberty or else it may not work at all.

@jump_spider

@freemo @jump_spider Fair point on the pre vs post puberty point. This is what I have found:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/mtf-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/ftm-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099

@realcaseyrollins

If it werent for the simple fact that it is mostly only fully effective pre-puberty then i would be much quicker to agree with you that it should wait until after 18. But that one fact really makes it a tough call.

@jump_spider