Swami Vivekananda was a representative of Neo-Vedanta Philosophy.
He effectively fused Nationalism and Religion for the upliftment of poor people and to rescue them from oppression by the rich. He endorsed the sciences, leading to Tata creating the Indian Institute of science. He was a force for the propogation of Hinduism in the western Hemisphere.
He was against Untouchability, but wasn’t against the caste system. For him the caste system was one where an individual is not born into a caste but is assigned a caste based on his gunas (actions).
So someone with a lower caste parentage could work upto a higher caste and a Brahmin child could grow up to fall through the ranks of caste.
His views were that - Caste was an early social system. But its complexity led to its failure and abuse.
The teaching of Swami Vivekanada are quite complex. The complexity is evident in the way the students of #JNU treated an uninaugrated statue of Swami Vivekananda.
The thing about JNU students is that they are quite daft. They do not understand the concept of abstract thought let alone Neo-Vedanta Philosophy.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.
It is high time we renamed the college #VeerSavarkarUniversity
#Leftwing #rightwing #fasciCommunist #india #kashmir #ayodhya
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@Full_marx If it is based on actions then who would be the authority as to who is or is not in a particular caste?
@freemo The golden question.
Who gets to decide who has worked enough to be a Brahmin and who should be demoted.
The authority to enforce this system was in three places.
1. The kings court
2. The high priests who would induct new Brahmins or demote existing ones
3. The social constitution - “Manusmriti”-V1.0
All three were liable to corruption. But not together, and that was the checks and balance. But during the time of regime changes this document would get vulnerable to the greed of Brahmins.
During the reign of Hindu King Chandra Gupta this system is said to have worked so well that India was known as the Golden sparrow.(other factors contributed too)
But when gupta died, it is said that Brahmins modified the document to fix their place in the caste system permanently. The guna operating principle was abandoned. Welcome Manusmriti V2.0
It was a fork altogether!!
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If only they had AI at that time to Dictate caste based on deeds alone. A persons social status depending directly on what he has done for the betterment of society. I believe we would have rid humanity of all problems by now.
The system was never supposed to be exclusive, it was inclusive and freely allowed vertical movement.
I just can’t ever help feeling that the caste system from Manusmriti V1.0 as a social system was way ahead of its time.
It feels to me like a radical experiment in social sciences that went wrong due to the corruption of a few scientists.
Was it necessary to conduct this experiment? I don’t know.
Then is it necessary to conduct any experiment?
@Full_marx Then when someone was born do they all start out in the lower caste and have to go through the same hardships to rise? Would the children of the members of the highest caste give birth automatically to children of the lower caste?
@freemo No children born to Brahmins would be brahmins as the Manusmriti assumed that under the parentage of Brahmin Parents their kids would gain sufficient knowledge and pick a school of philosophy to study further.
But irrespective of that , the kids had to prove their affiliation to a school of though before they reached an age where they could break celibacy.
Now here is the best part.
In any settlement, or human habitation.
It was the responsibility of Brahmins(Who were given huge houses with huge courtyards) to attempt administration of philosophical knowledge to children born to lower castes.
If a trader caste decides to teach his child trading, he was free to pull his child out from under the mentorship of a brahmin.
Similarly, a warrior caste would learn the art of defence under a sage. It was uncommon for warriors to renounce warfare as it threatened state security.
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But aren't you curious about untouchability?
@Full_marx And yes id be curious about untouchables and the system as a whole for sure, so happy you shared.
@freemo @Full_marx
Caste discrimination affects more than 260 millions in India.
I, myself could be categorized as an 'Untouchable' based on my caste. But since I grew up in a metropolitan city and my parents are well educated, I never faced any discrimination. Hence I consider myself a privileged untouchable. But once I leave the cities and venture into towns/villages, Caste discrimination incident surges. We are not allowed inside temples, or enter a street, or love/ marry someone who doesn't belong to our caste or drink water from the same well, etc. People literally get killed for doing any of this.
But as @Full_marx mentioned, caste system is a remnant of the past. Current caste discrimination has nothing to do with religion (Hinduism), you could easily see a pattern. It's about power, ego and illiteracy.
( Although few powerful lower caste groups/parties use this as a means to gain power & sympathy )
I mean, we are all humans right?
As a millennial I don't want to read Manusmriti to understand caste system. I can see what is happening around me & judge the system often exploited mercilessly by powerful groups hiding being the mask of religion.
How is that discrimination enforced? If you travel to some small town and try to enter a temple, and they say you cant for being "untouchable" how do they know you are untouchable in the first place?
@freemo @Full_marx
Many temples used to (or still) have boards that says "Untouchables are not allowed".
If you live in a village, Dalits and other lower caste people live in a particular part of the said village.
So if I grew up there, and if I'm from that 'part' of the village. I become an untouchable by default.
Back then, Dalit childrens were made to sit separately even in schools. And "untouchables" hardly got any education & They're economically poor.
And “Untouchables” are often forcibly assigned the most dirty, menial and hazardous jobs, such as cleaning human waste.
1, Manual Scavenging deaths (https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/civic-issues/article/chennai-manual-scavenger-dives-into-septic-tank-to-save-brother-dies-instantly/514401) - This happened day before yesterday.
2, Indian couple stoned for marrying outside caste (https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/11/article/indian-couple-stoned-for-marrying-outside-caste/)
3, In Tamil Nadu, Anatomy of A caste crime : Families devastated by Honour Killings (https://www.firstpost.com/long-reads/in-tamil-nadu-anatomy-of-a-caste-crime-families-devastated-by-honour-killings-speak-of-the-scourge-7033391.html)
4, Amrutha : 'My father ordered my husband's murder' (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45570981)
5, Caste tensions in Madurai village : Dalit families forced to pull kids out of school (https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/caste-tensions-madurai-village-dalit-families-forced-pull-kids-out-school-103609)
These incidents happened over the last few months. (Hundred more could've happened during the same period and i can't possibly share them)
Also, @freemo , you can 'not' hide this information. Its decided by birth and you certificate carries that information. If I want to study in a school or apply for a job, We need to provide this information.
You said it is recorded on your certificate. So Birth Certificates have your caste on it and it is still the case?
India offers quotas for lower castes.
Quotas in college admission, government jobs etc.
Many people in villages try to claim the benefits under the quotas.
some need it, some are there for the freebies.
that's another way people end up broadcasting their caste
there are many affluent people who may be living next door to you, and you wouldn't even know that they were untouchable
if you have money you can renounce caste
This is where the conversation of abolishing caste based reservation comes in. Analysts say that if we stop distributing freebies on the basis of caste. People will just stop identifying themselves as lower caste.
The left is vehemently opposed to this, and now it is a raging debate in our country.
this may stop the ghettoisation observed in villages
Wouldnt it make more sense to help people based on their ambitions, ability, and financial ability to help themselves.. if someone is poor and tries to be a good student shouldnt we help them just as quickly if htey are a low caste as we would if they were a high caste?
Similarly wouldnt the problem be simply solved by making the caste certificate system no longer searchable to the public?
@freemo @Karthikdeva The caste certificate is defended by the lower caste themselves.
They say they need it to claim reservations.
Now if we try removing the certificate, they say we are discriminating against centuries of oppression.
If we keep it, the west calls us cow dung worshipers.
What a double whammy no?
That's why I'm Right Wing.
Seems it could just be solved by keeping the certificates but making it so you cant publicly search the certificate record. So it can only be known what caste someone is if they volunteer that information. That seems as though it would address both sets of concerns here.. though maybe im missing something.
It is illegal to look up somebody's caste.
People generally bribe their way through it.
If it is illegal to look up someones caste it would seem this is in direct contradiction to what Karthikdeva stated... Obviously i have no idea which is true. But if it is illegal to lookup someones caste that seems to be a good first step to abolishing it.
@freemo @Full_marx @Karthikdeva "Caste discrimination" is not the issue in 21st-century India, well for the most part.
What remains problem is caste-based reservations. Politicians are busy appeasing certain 'castes', wiping their arses, to woo them to get votes.
The caste-based reservations do no help to the poor and underprivileged.
Here's a paper on this, if you are interested: https://www.parisschoolofeconomics.eu/IMG/pdf/JobMarket-2paper-CASSAN-PSE.pdf
Found this on Quora
It should be noted that the categories are really only used to identify the level of encouragement a person/family/caste needs for improving their quality of life and eventually society. Reservation was seen as a tool for making all our society equal in the future and one day it would be needed no more. But unfortunately like a person in pain becoming too dependent on pain relievers, that he does not recognize when they are not needed, to the point it is an addiction… reservation has also become an addiction to more than a few people… However, it should be noted that there are always persons who do need those pain relievers genuinely. It is not the fault of the medicine but the fault of the masses who cannot differentiate between want and need. It should also be noted that there are always people who don’t really need it but don’t like it when there are others who are getting it, just because they can’t get it.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-OBC-and-general-category
#fascicommunism #JNU #leftwing #rightwing #fascicommunist #india
@Full_marx You know what? Sometimes I feel that India has to choose between ‘equality’ and ‘democracy’ – India can't be "world's largest democracy" and "a free & equal society" at the same time.
Any democratic government that puts an end to this caste-based reservations will upset the caste "vote banks", and thus will not be able to win elections for the next term. There are reservations for castes not because government imposes them on people, but because people force the government to reserve seats for the castes. In a democracy, you cannot upset the mass, which can be ignorant and greedy — the reason why Socrates hated democracy.
@Full_marx @freemo Another argument used is "historical discrimination", that the so-called "lower castes" have been discriminated in the past, which while true is NOT a justification of reservations.
LGBTQs in the west have historically been discriminated against, and they still continue to face discrimination. I'm yet to come across a western government that reserves seats in universities, jobs, and even promotions in jobs for queers.
Reservations actually further divides the society. The 'general' people, who do not get reservations, feel that the lower castes have got accepted into prestigious universities only because of reservations. This makes them feel discriminated against and thus fuels hate against the ones that get reservations.
If the so-called lower castes really want to integrate with the broader Indian society, they have to voluntarily give up reservations. That's the only way out. Period.
A democratic government cannot put an end to reservations unless people demand the government to end reservations.
Actually most countries int he WEST do exactly this, reserve jobs for LGBT, well sorta.
We have affirmative action in the USA. It basically states that you need to hire minorities, even if they are less qualified, to ensure diversification. It effectively equates to a quota.
Universities are well known for having lower requirements for minorities, including LGBT, to help balance past and current discrimination against them.
There are a lot of rich minorities in america too. I'd be curious to see if people from the lower caste have more poor people in terms of percentage than people from higher caste, I'm willing to bet they do.
With that said I dont entierly disagree with you. In my mind help the people who are poor, not the people who belong to one group or another. That way you solve both problems. If a particular group has more poor people than another, then by helping the poor, you are by extension helping that group.
@freemo Thanks for the correction, I'm no expert on how universities work in the west.
But in India the issue is that poverty has little correlation with caste. A person in India may be from the higher castes and still be sleeping hungry many nights; a person might be possessing caste certificates that makes them eligible for relaxed rules for jobs and education, while living in a posh bungalow, driving Lamborghinis, and whining about oppression on social media from their iPhones.
And personally I feel that talent, skills and merit should always be given priority, not diversity. Why can't we just be humans? @Full_marx