@freemo @hrisskar Calling somebody by preferred pronouns doesn't necessarily have anything to do with respect; I wouldn't lie and call somebody a woman if they're a man, even if they told me to.

@freemo @hrisskar It doesn't mean I hate them, or have a phobia, but I don't think you can truly love somebody if you're not willing to tell them the truth.

@realcaseyrollins

I dont think its hate so much as bigotry... The language we use has not in the history of language ever been about picking pronouns by a persons DNA or sex. It has always historicaly been choosen based on a persons gender, not their sex. Even dictionaries from 1800s in english explicitly state as much.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar If one believes that pronouns refer to gender and not sex, this is a reasonable argument.

Kinda confused about the bigotry statement then okay.

@realcaseyrollins

Well ill try to explain the bigotry.. what purpose are you trying to serve by calling someone who is trying very hard to represent the female gender that they are not a female.. you say its because its not nice to let someone lie to themselves so lets take that at face value.. whats the lie?

Do you think they dont KNOW they have male DNA, obviously they do.. so no lie there.

You think they dont KNOW they were born with one set of genetalia or the other? They do so no lie there.

So where is the lie? There isnt one.. The language they use is even the same language we have used for thousands of years, so its not a linguistic correction either...

So what purpose does it server, where is the kind "truth" that is suppose to be served? I dont see it.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar By calling a man a woman, one is lying.

And I never said telling the truth is nice, in many cases including this one, it's not. But, it's still loving, and the right thing to do.

@realcaseyrollins

Yes that would be. But they are choosing pronouns and using the classical language which defines gender not sex. So how is it a lie, they never claimed in any way their sex was any different than it was. They are simply using their gender as everyone always has.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar If someone says they're male or female, it's reasonable to assume that they're referring to both sex and gender simultaneously. To not clear that up is either misleading or making unwarranted assumptions.

@realcaseyrollins

It is often, though not always, the case that gender and sex are the same. So one can, as you said **assume** that by default. But as your own wording jsut stated it is an *asumption** when an assumption turns out to be untrue it looks pretty childish (and in this case bigoted) to assume the OTHER person is lying rather than you simply making an incorrect assumption.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar I am confused, where is the childishness and bigotry?

@realcaseyrollins

As I just stated, because you made an assumption (that a persons gender and sex were the same) and when you find with an individual that assumption was wrong your response is to call them a liar rather than to recognize the assumption will often fail you assumptions tend to do.. Thats childish and in this case likely driven by bigotry.

No lie was told, they expressed their gender and told you what it was, their actual gender. You just happened to get it wrong because you assumed they fit the majority where gender and sex were the same... So yea

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar Is it unreasonable to expect that when you tell someone they're gender, they will think that I'd your sex?

@realcaseyrollins

Well I think its reasonable to expect that in 80% of cases a persons sex will match their gender, in 20% of cases it wont (or whatever the real numbers are).. I think it becomes unreasonable when you assume one **must** follow the other and if it doesnt it is a lie.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar Ah; our difference here likely hinge on our disagreements on what it means to be male or female. I believe a man is someone with XY chromosomes, and a woman is someone with XX chromosomes. If this makes me bigoted, so be it. 💁🏾‍♂️

@realcaseyrollins

That makes no sense.. mae and female doesnt have a single definition. Why would you feel you have the right to be the authority on some words that were defined long before you were born. You cant beleive words mean something different than they mean.

Male and female have two seperate definitions. depending on context. If you care about a persons penis and vagina (such a doctor might, or someone about to have sexual intercourse) then yes you might use male and female to talk about a persons genitals. The other definition is the one we use day to day where it is used to refer to gender. You dont get to pick one definition as "right" and the other "wrong". thats not how language works, unless you have some agenda (the bigotry).

To me if someone insists they are going to use pronouns to talk about peoples genitals it is a rather "sick" mentality IMO.. its basically like if you said "Hi, Even though you look like a woman I'm obsessed with your genitals and thus will make sure i reference your penis every chance i can by insisting I call you he"... to me people who do that are probably gay and in denial even with themselves. I mean why else would they be so obsessed with a persons junk they feel the need to reference it in everything they say. It makes no sense linguisticly on any level really unless your a doctor.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar I am confused, so no one can be an authority on what male and female means? Then what makes you right?

@realcaseyrollins

You can be an authority on what it means, english professionals who have studied the etymology of the word would be such an authority. What you cant do (without appearing bigoted in this case) is to make up new definitions for the words and apply it to others causing them distress, convetying no truth or insight, and ultimately only doing harm.

The reason it appear to be bigotry is in the nuance. Going out of your way to create a new definition for words that is in contradiction with the historical usage where the new definitions are not really practical or useful in anyway and clearly hurtful is going to smell a lot like bigotry.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar What? I am not the author of the dictionary.

@freemo @realcaseyrollins @hrisskar The absolute state of academia cause books put together by autists dictate colloquial evolution of language to make trannies happy and that's just how it works.

@realcaseyrollins

Wait, how are you able to pick what pronouns to use then since you cant tell what chromosomes they have?

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar How can you tell if someone is trans?

@realcaseyrollins

You don,t you dont need to, thats the point. No one has ever asked to inspect someones genitals or their DNA in order to decide what pronoun to use. Because thats not how we have ever picked pronouns. We pick pronouns by if someone presents male or female.

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar I'm always going to give people benefit of doubt and if they present themselves as male I'll probably call them male, unless they tell me they were born female.

But am I running around asking people their chromosomes? Heck no. That's ridiculous, and none of my business.

@realcaseyrollins

Why would how they are born matter, you literally dont know how anyone else was born when you pick their pronouns, so why should knowing in an individuals case all of a sudden change what language you use if not for the purpose of bigotry

@hrisskar

@freemo @hrisskar Cuz it determines if one is male or female.

@realcaseyrollins

Yes but it doesnt determine what GENDER they are are, only their sex. We are talking about pronouns and gender not sex.. So it isnt a lie and its rather obvious they dont mean it in the way you are distorting it to mean, especially since that has never been how language was used.

@hrisskar

@freemo @realcaseyrollins @hrisskar the diference between gender and sex is only imagined by wierdos. there is no diference

@shit @freemo @hrisskar It's actually acknowledged by plenty of typically reasonable people. It seems to be the best way so far to identify and describe various facets of sexual expression.

@realcaseyrollins @freemo @hrisskar ur all sexual deviants. sex obccesed freaks.

@realcaseyrollins @freemo @hrisskar how can you tell if someone is vegan

@hakui @freemo @hrisskar Only if they tell you, I think.

@realcaseyrollins @freemo @hrisskar yeah, same concept

@hakui @freemo @hrisskar Aha! Just as I suspected! 🕵🏾‍♂️

@realcaseyrollins And what about your gender?

As for sex specifically what about people born with male chromosomes but look indistinguishable from a woman from birth?

@freemo You do make a good point about intersex people, but that's not what I was referring to.

Still, the pronoun question regarding intersex people isn't something I'd considered before, and it demands consideration.