@freemo According to qoto.org/about/more says is against laws and one would be banned because of it.

Does this mean that a expressing their religious belief about man-to-man intercourse is a hate speech? According to this is a shameful deed and according to there is death penalty for both parties having such an intercourse.

@farooqkz @freemo
What is your real purpose in asking this question?

Surely you don’t need to ask if advocating killing people is hate speech.

A more interesting question is whether this is hate speech against Muslims.

Consider this view is far from universal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_

Consider that Leviticus 20:13, in at least the King James translation, calls for the same thing.

I can’t speak to the Jewish view here, but Christians view the Old Testament to have been supplanted by a less-harsh message of the New Testament.

(Before making assumptions about the Jewish view of Leviticus, keep in mind that the King James translation contains 2 references to unicorns—down from Tyndale’s 4).

Are you trying to incite hatred of Muslims from the LGBTQ community?

I don’t think that’s your intent, but I do think you need to reflect on why you would present the religion as a threat.

Is defaming a religion a ban-worthy act? I don’t know. I’m new here.

But I don’t approve of it.

@BobKerns @freemo @tonic

There are many acts which are considered a crime(a sin which has a punishment) in my religion and the punishment of many of these crimes is death.

Regarding "Advocating killing people", this is too general. In my religion I'm must kill someone who is aware and is trying to kill me and that I don't have any other way of defending myself(e.g. in a war).

Also the punishment for intentional murder is also death. And so is punishment for two who had a man-to-man sexual intercourse. Given that these hadiths are "correct". Under which conditions? I don't know.

Now if I narrate such a hadith and tell the others that it's correct and that's my belief, is this considered a hate speech?

The reason I'm asking about this, is my future actions. As I am a user of this instance, I must know its rules well so that I won't post something which is against the rules.

The reason this discussion is public is that it might benefit the others as well.

@farooqkz

Lots of Muslims believe that love is love, and they don't hate people for who they are.

Maybe you should consider changing your religious beliefs. Have you considered that?

@BobKerns @freemo @tonic

@Pat

The overwhjelming majority of Muslimns I know from around the world would never want to force their beliefs on others. They themselves would never engage in homosexuality as they do view it as against their personal morality but would never dream of imposing that on others.

So yea, the excuse of "this is my religion" doesnt cut it, because he choose that particular hateful interpritation, the religion didnt "force" it upon him.

@farooqkz @BobKerns @tonic

@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic

According to hadiths, Muslims must implement punishments as much as they can. Which are for the good of society and possibly the person punishment is given to. And this isn't a personal belief, it is a religious belief. e.g. I don't have this idea, my religion has.

Regarding punishments, some are mentioned in Quran, some other in Hadiths and some other in both. For example, sexual intercourse out of marriage is illegal according to Quran and the punishment is 100 lashes in the public which must be done by an authority(government?). You can see the beginning of the 24th Surah.

Hand of thieves must be cut off according to 5:38.

And regarding anal sex between two men, the punishment is death according to the hadiths I've mentioned earlier.

P.S.: Opinion of Muslims is not relevant. For Islam you must look into Quran and Hadiths.

@farooqkz

No it is a personal beleif.. you choose to pick the interpritation you just described, other Muslims dont, period. So yes its a personal belief that you choose to tell yourself it isnt, nothing more nothing less. all religious beleifs are personal beliefs.

@Pat @BobKerns @tonic

@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic

You might be right about that religious belief is also personal belief. But when Hadiths obviously say there is death penalty, I am trying to deceive myself if I believe otherwise. There is a proverb in Arabic "This is more obvious than the sun". If I am a believer in Muhammad, what other interpretation could I have when he says if they did so, do so.

@farooqkz

Its only obvious to you it is hardly obvious that it is thr one and only jnterpritation to the resr of the world.

@Pat @BobKerns @tonic

@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic

I don't like to discuss this further. If anyone is interested they can read Quran and Hadiths which are both available online.

@freemo

With respect, I suggest you be more careful about using words like "monster", "idiot", "extremist", etc. If you call someone a monster for their personal or religious belief, you will probably make them more persistent. If you think something is wrong, come with evidence and act mega nice. And I also recommend first studying a Book(Quran or not) for a relatively reasonable period and then discuss what it talks about.

@farooqkz

I have read the Quran about a dozen times at this point, similar to many of the other common holy books of other religions. I think I've "studied" it more than enough to have an opinion.

As for what I refer to an idea, it is not motivated by what will manipulate people the most to agree with me. I say my opinions and I voice them honestly.

@Pat @BobKerns @tonic

@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic

I'm surprised you've studied Quran a dozen times. How old are you if I may ask?

@farooqkz

40 and religion is a hobby of mine. I've read most holy texts of Islam, Jeudaism, and Christianity, as well as a few less known religions. I feel it is important to study religions and that religion holds a lot of wisdom.

@Pat @BobKerns @tonic

@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic

Hmm I'm 22 and I study Quran since I've learned which is from about 7-8 years ago. And I haven't studied even a 1/5 times, yet.

I think our scales are different then :/

@farooqkz I think thats a bit of a cop out.. WE have both read it, we both understand it. Scalres are irrelevant at this point.

@freemo no I have read just a small part of Quran. Not enough to have a unified view. So in discussions like this I present my understanding which have been formed by reading his small portion. I think this is something else which slipped through my mind.

@farooqkz Well if you havent read the whole thing that might limit you a bit.. But i think our discussion is generic enough that it might not matter all that much.

@freemo okay so I ask you: Quran commands Muslims to fight and kill unbelievers. Can you explain this to me? Must I kill my atheist friend?

@farooqkz The Quran cant command you to do anything. It is a book. Only your interpritation of the book will "command" you to do anything. A book has no meaning until it is interprited.

@freemo I beg to differ. Such a thing is not allowed. If it is God's command, only he is permitted to change it. I cannot add a single word or miss one. isn't what you are talking about changing his word by making extensions to it which you call interpretation.

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@farooqkz No im not talking about changing the content of the book by adding words to it.. I am talking about what a person thinks is meant by the text in its current form.

Lets break apart the example. Lets say somewhereint he quran it said "You will kill infidels".. well lots of interpritations for that ... 1) One might think the "you" in this case doesnt refer to the reader but was something being said to someone in the context of the story 2) Infidels may be interprited as something other than "nonbeleiver" 3) They may feel other parts of the text further clarify the meaning and change it, for example at a later point it may say killing is wrong 4) People may feel these were gods instructions for people at a point in the past but was never intended by god to apply to people in the modern day. 5) it may not be seen a commandment at all 7) Perhaps they dont feel the Quran is infallable and the people who wrote it were flawed and made mistakes 7) Someone may feel the language has changed since the book was written and some of the meaning is lost.

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@freemo okay then my point is that there is only one possible understanding of plus plus a healthy mind which most people have. As an example, please tell me your understanding of this verse:

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are stern against the deniers, merciful to one another; you see them kneeling, prostrating, seeking grace from Allah and good pleasure; their marks are on their faces from the effect of prostration. Such is their description in the Torah and their description in the Gospel: like vegetation that sprouted, then became strong, then grew thick, then rested on its stem, impressing the farmers. Through them He enrages the deniers. Allah has promised those of them who have attained faith and have done righteous deeds forgiveness and a great reward.

Please tell me your understand of the first sentence.

@farooqkz

So this part:

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are stern against the deniers, merciful to one another; you see them kneeling, prostrating, seeking grace from Allah and good pleasure; their marks are on their faces from the effect of prostration.

(One small correction, Allah here should be God, as you are translating to english and God is the english word for Allah)

I see many interpretations here, and I dont myself pick any particular one… lets break it apart

Muhamed is the messenger of god

this part could have many interpritations, though most musslims would take it to mean he is a prophet from god delivering a new religion. I myself might take it to mean any numberof alternative things, for example I might take it to mean he takes messages to god, rather than the other direction. Lotsof potential interpritations for this.

and those with him are stern against the deniers, merciful to one another

Again lots of room here for different meanings… What does “with him” mean, a literal interptiation would mean people standing around him, could also mean other messengers of god, or it could mean his followers.

Sterm against deniers can also have a lot of interpritation.. deniers of what? stern in what way? etc

Every part has tons of things it could mean, and it isnt obvious to everyone since there is so much difference in interpretations.

@farooqkz My personal interpritation is this:

A person named muhamed was wise and had understoof some truths about god (the meaning of messenger). A bunchg of people who hung out around Muhamed had very similar ideas and insights about god. Those people put more effort into helping eachother out than they did people that werent part of their group. This group prayed so much that they had marks on their face (likely from putting their face on the ground when praying)

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