@SameGirlie

Not everyone having a mature conversation with a difference of opinion is gaslighting, please stop being hyperbolic.

If you'd care to elaborate on what you mean I'd love to hear you out. But your response is far too short for me to know what you mean.

@mike805 @volkris

@freemo @SameGirlie @volkris Context missing, did someone delete a toot here?

@mike805

No SameGirlie rage quit and blocked you and everyone else int he thread.

@SameGirlie @volkris

@freemo @SameGirlie @volkris Oh well, that's called losing the argument.

@mike805 @SameGirlie @volkris
Your opinion cant be very valuable if you didnt even bother to consider dissenting opinions in forming it... I just call it being ignorant, at least when the conversation is otherwise mature.

@freemo @SameGirlie @volkris From what I've seen, the USA in particular is so divided that many people - maybe most - will just shut down when they conclude that you are "one of them." I run into this on noc.social as well when the subject of global warming comes up. There is a resident doomist on there, and he will not discuss the HOW of it. Just "we must stop using fossil fuels right now!"

@mike805

Yes hyper-polarization in the USA tends to result in people being very aggressive against anyone with a more nuanced or middle road opinion than their own. Its very tiring.

@SameGirlie @volkris

@freemo @SameGirlie @volkris I've actually been accused of "both sides ism" on here. Yeah, I think the American political system is like one of those puppet shows where the puppeteer has one on each hand and they argue with each other.

The issues they argue about all have one thing in common: they are not important to the financier class.

@mike805

Yea anytime you add even a smidge of nuance to a conversation its "both sidism"... being in the USA is like being in a mental institution where no one is getting treated.

Do Americans even realize how they are seen as the laughing stock of the rest of the world, both left and right politically?

@SameGirlie @volkris

@freemo @SameGirlie @volkris America ought to be taken seriously as a threat by the rest of the world. If you look into it, a lot of the Bad Things of the 20th century were partly caused by Americans who thought they knew how to run the world.

American progressives thought they could create utopia by getting into WW1, and they set up a future disaster. Around the same time, some people in New York, with a similar worldview, were funding the Bolsheviks, setting up the other big disaster to come.

@freemo @SameGirlie @volkris After the war, the "Frankfurt school" was allowed to set up shop here, leading to our current educational madhouse. And on the other political side, we thought we could win a civil war in Vietnam and elsewhere.

Inside every (blank) there is usually NOT an American trying to get out! Germany and Japan were special cases, not the norm.

@mike805 @freemo @SameGirlie @volkris

If only good old Teddy Adorno had been nearly as effective as Mr Reaganomics in shaping the educational system …
https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/

@mike805 @freemo @SameGirlie @volkris

Japan and West, eventually reunified, Germany were huge success stories,
because
Marshall and MacArthur (relieved just in time by Truman)
prevailed over
McNamara and Morgenthau (also relieved just in time by Truman).

The neocons (and their predecessors) really f$cked up Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and vicinity.

@tatzelbrumm @freemo @SameGirlie @volkris Well also.. Germany was a very civilized country taken over by some evil people, and most of the evil people were dead by then. A lot of Germans did not like the jackbooted thug nature of the Nazis, although they liked the winning while it lasted.

In Japan, people were thoroughly trained to obey authorities. So when their Emperor said "this is the new boss" they went along.

The countries we have tried to fix since then were never that civilized.

@mike805
cc:
@tatzelbrumm@tuebingen.network @freemo @SameGirlie @volkris
@mike805

Well, that's a dangerously oversimplified view of history.
Both in Germany and in Japan, lots of thoroughly evil people remained law abiding citizens, only the laws (the evil version of which some of them had written and enforced pre-1945) had changed a little.

The Critical Theory founders who had found exile in the USA were quite appalled that ordinary, decent people could get into a collective frenzy and become rabid monsters, and then go back to becoming ordinary people again,
and did some serious research on this kind of authoritarian personality.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Authoritarian_Personality
for starters,
and
https://youtu.be/TjDEsGZLbio
for a reminder of a particularly noteworthy specimen.

If you actually read Adorno et al.'s book,
you'll be able to do your own critical thinking about Critical Theory, and not just regurgitate slogans that originate mostly from those for whom the classification as "authoritarian personality" is unsettlingly accurate to this very day,
cf. Donald Trump and his unwavering supporters.

@tatzelbrumm Even the Wiki says the FS were radical Marxists.

The authoritarian personality could also be called the cultural immune response.

If you immune system is too aggressive you get autoimmune disease. Western culture has suffered from that in the past (ex: religious warfare.) That's not our problem today.

If your immune system is not active enough, you have AIDS, and an opportunistic infection will kill you. That's the West today.

The FS helped to wreck the West's immune system.

@mike805 @tatzelbrumm@qoto.org
The USA developed an allergic response against anything that looked Marxist after WW2, and it still shows, even in Wikipedia.

For a healthy immune response against the allergy against anything remotely communist, see
(and research the context of)
Joseph N. Welch's response to Senator Joe McCarthy, 68 years ago:
https://youtu.be/8llS0ZkLVGA

@mike805 @tatzelbrumm@qoto.org

A more recent healthy immune response to a Commander-in-Chief with no sense of decency

is this one by the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, General Mark A. Milley:
by the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, General Mark A. Milley on 2 June 2020:
https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/CJCS%20Memo%20to%20the%20Joint%20Force%20(02JUN2020).pdf

and the
Memorandum for the Joint Force
of all the Joint Chiefs of Staff on 21 January 2021,
https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/JCS%20Message%20to%20the%20Joint%20Force%20JAN%2012%2021.pdf

@mike805
cc:
@freemo @SameGirlie @volkris
How, do you come to the conclusion that the Frankfurt School led to the current US educational madhouse?

I'm puzzled because I have found an Asylum for the Homeless¹⁸ Intellectual⁸³
(more like "The Outside of the Asylum"
[https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/The_Outside_of_the_Asylum])
from an educational system gone mad after Reagan put the wrecking ball to it.

And I'm even extensively quoting (Old) Frankfurt School luminary Theodor W. Adorno
for #TROLLING the contemporary Frankfurt School headmistress in the kitchen downstairs:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10227966250966172&set=p.10227966250966172&type=3
[might be shadowbanned by Facebook]:

Just for #TROLLING¹⁹⁹⁵:

In your Refuge for the Homeless¹⁸
let yourself be inspired by the Hausgeist
[English: house spirit, Latin: genius loci]
to consult Theodor W. Adorno's Minima Moralia
"8. If bad boys should tempt you"⁸,
to open the cookbook of a famous aunt on page 8
to get a reference to yet another cookbook*,
whose existence illustrates the problem
that bad boys think that women belong in the kitchen,
and by an extremely serendipitous coincidence,
on the title page, you find the name of her bad boy nephew.

* https://www.booklooker.de/B%C3%BCcher/Angebote/titel=Was+M%C3%A4nnern+so+gut+schmeckt

8. If bad boys should tempt you. – There is an amor intellectualis [Latin: abstract love] for the kitchen staff, the temptation for those who work theoretically or artistically, to relax the intellectual [geistigen] claim on oneself, to lower one’s niveau, to follow all manner of platitudes in the matter [Sache] and expression, which one had rejected as an alert appraiser. Since no categories, not even that of cultivation [Bildung: education], can be proscribed to intellectuals anymore, and a thousand demands of hustle and bustle endanger the concentration, the effort of producing something with a measure of integrity is so great, that scarcely anyone is still capable of it. The pressure of conformity, which burdens everyone who produces something, furthers lowers their demands on themselves. The center of intellectual [geistigen] self-discipline as such is understood to be disintegrating. The taboos which comprised the intellectual [geistigen] stature of a human being, often sedimented experiences and unarticulated recognitions, direct themselves continuously against one’s own impulses, which one learned to condemn, which however are so strong, that only an unquestioning and unquestionable juridics [Instanz] can halt them. What applies to the life of the instinctual drives, applies no less to the life of the mind: the painter and composer, who forbid themselves the use of this or that color combination or chord contrast as kitschy, the author who finds that a linguistic configuration gets on their nerves as banal or pedantic, react so forcefully because there are layers within them which are drawn by such. The rejection of the hegemonic overgrowth of culture presumes that one has participated enough in the latter to feel it in one’s fingertips, as it were, simultaneously drawing from this participation the forces to dismiss it. These forces, which make their appearance as such in individual resistance, are for that reason by no means of a merely individual sort. The intellectual conscience, in which they are integrated, has a social moment so much as the moral superego. It crystallizes in the conception [Vorstellung] of the right society and its citizens. If this conception is set aside – and who could still blindly subscribe to it – then the intellectual compulsion towards the bottom loses its inhibitions, and all the junk which the barbaric culture has left behind in the individuated [Individuum] comes into view: half-education, laxness, cloddish trustfulness, shoddiness. Mostly it is rationalized as humanity, as the wish to make oneself understandable to other human beings, as cosmopolitan responsibility. But the sacrifice of intellectual self-discipline is borne far too easily, to really believe that it is indeed one. This is drastically evident when observing intellectuals whose material situation has changed: as soon as they have convinced themselves even the slightest bit that they must earn a living by writing and nothing else, they send the same junk into the world, down to the last nuances, which in their lusher times they once denounced with the utmost ferocity. Entirely like formerly wealthy emigres, who can finally be as greedy in foreign lands as they always wanted to be at home, so do those who are impoverished in Spirit [Geiste] march enthusiastically into the hell, which is their heaven.
[https://criticaltheoryresearchnetwork.com/2017/06/17/adorno-minima-moralia-1-8-bad-boys-tempt-1944/]

18. https://archinect.com/forum/thread/147736192/refuge-for-the-homeless-theodor-adorno-minima-moralia-1951

83. https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/blogs/news/4657-vice-president-by-theodor-adorno

1995. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing#Automated_bug_triage

@tatzelbrumm@qoto.org @mike805 @freemo @SameGirlie @volkris

Finding the actual link to the TROLLING paper is left as an exercise to the (hopefully not dependent on a post-Reagan US college) student. ;-)

@tatzelbrumm @freemo @SameGirlie @volkris They infected the American education system with Critical Theory, from what I've read.

@freemo

Meh, it's one of those terms that I'd just go ahead and own.

"Why yes, I am engaging in both-sidism because I can about sorting out what's true, and I can think critically and hold two ideas in my head at one time. You don't, or you can't?"

@mike805 @SameGirlie

@volkris @freemo @SameGirlie Yes I do. I genuinely do not fully agree with either political side. I think if you gave either the far Right or the far Left a dictatorship you'd be in hell soon enough. Horseshoe theory is real - both of those extremes are nuts and want to impose their crazy by force on everyone else.

@mike805 @volkris @SameGirlie

Both sidism may be bad if you amplify both sides indiscriminately.. it is never bad to listen to both sides though.

@mike805 @freemo @SameGirlie @volkris

If you lose an argument, you should lose in style.

@tatzelbrumm

I want a t-shirt that says "Everyone I dont like is Hitler"

@mike805 @SameGirlie @volkris

@freemo

Wooow, I see her ragequit reply, where she effectively said "nu uh!" and insisted that we all knew she was right.

I would assume she's one that has outstanding student loans so she has a vested interest in loan forgiveness.

And so I'd guess that the education she wants us all to pay for didn't exactly do her thinking skills a world of good.

I wonder if she ever ragequit a class... and how that worked out for her.

@mike805 @SameGirlie

@volkris @mike805 @SameGirlie

Possibly.. honestly looking at her garbage of a feed she looks like someone who is pretty radicalized/polarized in general.. She probably rage quits on anyone who disagrees with her even a tiny bit.