@xorbit @lupyuen Not sure I agree - based on almost 40 years in the embedded world I have seen too many engineers become self-taught programmers and have no idea how to abstract away hardware or how to set up continuous integration systems.

To be fair I have also seen too many CS grads that have no idea how to force things into the const segment or how to read a map file or build a linker script.

Embedded is a special combination of both worlds, and you need to constantly learn and improve ...

@rhempel @xorbit @lupyuen Embedded Systems need to evolve for product sales. A good Embedded System should operate without issue for many years.

I didn't see EEs or CS majors doing anything useful for embedded systems. It was only a group of hackers that dared to mess with the dark arts.

@AmpBenzScientist @rhempel @lupyuen
"A good Embedded System should operate without issue for many years."
Exactly. That is: it should operate completely unlike the steaming pile of turd that most software on this planet has turned into. (Despite all the abstractions and CI that supposedly was going to make it all better and has completely failed to do so.)

Embedded need to be lean, simple, predictable, reliable.

@xorbit

"Embedded need to be lean, simple, predictable, reliable." --> Sadly, that should be true for all software, but was sacrificed in the 1990s or so.
Big projects back then had "memory budgets", now in most projects we don't even know how much memory is required.

~1999, I ran a building automation system in Java, with a web UI in Java, attached (JServ back then) to a Apache webserver, on RedHat Linux with a fvwm95 desktop.... On 32MB of RAM!!

@AmpBenzScientist @rhempel @lupyuen

@niclas @xorbit @AmpBenzScientist @rhempel @lupyuen
and contrary to modern stuff, old software tends to still run just fine. fvwm still works, apache still works. can't say that of most modern software.

@bonifartius @niclas @xorbit @rhempel @lupyuen It was built differently back then. The hardware for embedded systems was usually robust. I think WRT 54 routers are still working with mods. Remember JTAG and UART headers on circuit boards?

I'm not trying to revel in the past but there are certain features that should make a comeback. It just seems like modern electronics are made to turn into ewaste. The software or firmware is another issue but the hardware will usually prevent anything other than malware from making use of it.

@AmpBenzScientist @niclas @xorbit @rhempel @lupyuen absolutely. i have no idea what notebook to buy with thinkpads being extra-slim now as well. even the workstation series seems to be plastic shit in the latest iterations.

i know there are framework etc. but tbh they feel like something expensive (the price is probably fair but really can't compete with refurbished notebooks ;) ultra modular. i just want something robust like an ibm thinkpad.

@bonifartius @niclas @xorbit @rhempel @lupyuen The Chinese APT spyware infected Lenovo laptops? It's usually very good quality malware.

It doesn't get much better than a Panasonic Toughbook. I used to kick my Toughbook down stairs when people asked me what type of laptop I had. That was only a CF-T8 and not a real model like the CF-31.

I'd recommend buying a used one and doing whatever repairs it needs. For the military ruggedized versions you get an insanely durable laptop with hot swappable batteries. Parts are expensive but not really compared to Thinkpads.

I was able to use Ubuntu but I would recommend RHEL for compatibility. It will feel a little slow but it's going to work in nearly any condition. It's a laptop that likely retailed for $8k or more. My CF-T8 had Vista installed when new and had a weird Intel Core nomenclature. It was not a Core 2 Duo but an undervolted and underclocked i5. So you do get what someone else paid for.

A Framework might have some cute features but it's not a briefcase made of thick magnesium alloy that had to interface with military equipment. It's likely not going to overheat in temperatures approaching 120F. It's a Combat Proven laptop and my default recommendation for a laptop.

The keyboards can be backlit and the key presses feel a bit better than a Thinkpad.

@bonifartius @niclas @xorbit @rhempel @lupyuen I've seen more than one example of a Thinkpad being hacked down to UEFI. One wasn't even out of warranty and had the latest Intel security on board. I almost regret getting a Thinkpad, the support used to be horrible but now it's only bad. Whitelisted components, backdoors in firmware and all at the price where one would think they actually OWN the hardware.

With the Framework, I think you can just buy the motherboard for an upgrade and hopefully put it in something like a Chromebook. There has to be a community around doing inappropriate swaps. Perhaps even having two different motherboards so one can have a mini cluster in a laptop form factor.

@xorbit @rhempel @lupyuen It needs to be built to a standard. The standard being better than the competition, not cheaper.

@rhempel @lupyuen Not expecting many to agree because most likely the # of CS grads here is way higher than EEs.
CS grads seem to think abstraction and CI are the key to good embedded, while at best they are incremental improvement. I've seen many embedded systems that sucked BECAUSE of bad abstraction. The key is knowing where to put the abstraction so you don't turn a finely tuned piece of event driven hardware into a glob of polling mess that fails to properly do several things at once.