“Let’s combat the pay gap! Sexual harassment! Glass ceiling! STEM inequality! Ignored heroines! Rape culture! Sexist language! Pressure to be pretty! Down with the patriarchy!”
“Uh… What about male lifespan, work casualties, military deaths, the draft, parental fraud, traffic accidents, suicide victims, homicide victims, homelessness, imprisonment, drug abuse, family courts, work hours, concrete floor, educational attainment? Shouldn’t we at least talk about that too?”
“Yeah, that’s all the patriarchy! See? It’s a system that oppresses both #women and men. We feminists work to dismantle it. It’s in men’s best interest, too. Aren’t you a #feminist?”
“Sure I am — if it’s about equal treatment of both sexes under the law, and about removing any discrimination on the basis of sex.”
“Then you’re against the #patriarchy, too.”
“Well, I would prefer a word that is less divisive and doesn’t suggest that #men are the problem… I don’t think ‘patriarchy’ really means what you just said. But if we have to unite under that banner… so be it! Down with the patriarchy! Down with sexism!”
“Well said! See? We’re in this together! Let’s combat the pay gap! Sexual harassment! Glass ceiling! STEM inequality! Ignored heroines! Rape culture! Sexist language! Pressure to be pretty!”
“Wait. What?”
@tripu I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you based on this, but the work deaths stat was kind of a shock when I first heard it. iirc men are something like 16-17x more likely to be killed at work?
@tripu how the fuck is work deaths a sex equality issue? what's your solution, make sure more women die at work so it's equal, yay, we're done? No, the solution is to make sure less people die in general and that has nothing to do with their sex. Yes if the cultural inequality is decreased you might expect that statistic to also become more even, but that is just a side effect to observe as a curiosity. Same goes for most of your other "men issues" that is literally just mortality, or things like homelessness, imprisonment or drug abuse for same exact logic, the solution to those problems is not in equality of sexes. That leaves you with parental fraud and family court, you may talk about those things in this context... obviously these are very important problems that affect majority of people throughout their lifetime... major major things yes, and not at all a side effects of different issues...
sidenote: objective devaluation of men's lives stem exactly from the same logic as objective valuation of women's, and yes it is patriarchy
“Objective devaluation of men’s lives stem exactly from the same logic as objective valuation of women’s, and yes it is patriarchy”
So we live in society that is “controlled by men”, and men decided to use that power to devalue their own lives (so that they die younger, live more often on the streets, are incarcerated more often, etc) and to value more the lives of women (so that they get more degrees, work shorter hours, are not sent to wars, etc).
I think I get it now.
@tripu wow, thanks for shredding the thread into million pieces on an instance that allows 2^16 characters, I’m sure it’s just cause you’re computer illiterate or using some crippled client or something, not at all to prevent anyone from following you non-arguments, oh no, that would be ridiculous.
How is an extremely bad outcome (death, no less) affecting 1,165% more men than women (ie, men being >12× more at risk) not a sex equality issue?
It’s not a sex inequality issue cause it can’t be solved by sex equality, unless you consider equal number of women dying a solution. How many times should I repeat this. Can you read?
I’ll ignore the captious question.
The question was not meant to be answered, but for you ponder on it and realize the above, but alas now I had spelled it out for you twice in this thread, as you are apparently averse to thinking.
My point is that the same people who defend female quotas…
I’m very glad that we have finally established that your point has nothing to do with what you have written in the OP. The argument of benefits for women is a completely different one. It goes something like this: “women have been royally fucked over by our societies for many generation both culturally and genetically and to get them out of the deep pit that we’ve left them in they need some help”. Now if you want to argue with that argue with that, I don’t care much about your opinion though. The OP had nothing about that, but I understand this is central point of your entire life’s narrative, so not surprising that you assumed that everyone must be aware of it, and view everything in that context.
“Just mortality”. You mean staying alive…
Yes please attack my words without context. Can you please read the sentence you have quoted till the end? Please, for once? The point is that sex equality, will not cure the deaths. I literally just have this one central point, but you keep ignoring it no matter how many times I repeat and rephrase it.
Parental fraud does not affect “majority of people” — it affects men only.
Is derailing the only thing you are capable of doing? Obviously I meant men in this context and the point is does not affect majority of men anywhere near as much as the other issues mentioned in the OP affect women, that is most of them, throughout their entire lives.
Again, how tilted against men has the balance of a specific issue to be for you to acknowledge that that issue is sex-related
I clearly acknowledged it’s sex inequality issue, the only one (or I guess two) in your list. Once again, can you read?
I think I get it now.
Yes men hate OTHER men, and love women. What planet are you from? As a man, try going out and publicly pick a fight with a local woman, you’ll, more often then not, be greeted by a local gang of men, who think they own the block, and who will pulverize you in place for gesturing with you hands towards her. As a women you will never be treated so harshly by the same men no matter what you do, because they are not maniacs or killers, their are actually “righteous”. Amongst men street fights is common way to settle a dispute, while hitting a woman is blasphemy.
I already spoon fed you the meaning of patriarchy in another thread so refer to that for more details, but the gist is, again, that men devalue lives of OTHER men, not their own lives. I understand how you got confused there, after all you seem convinced this is some kind of a grand conspiracy battle of two factions - all the men vs all the women in the whole wide the world.
“Thanks for shredding the thread into million pieces.”
I replied in five toots to avoid a single very long post, and to try to disentangle our discussion by splitting up sub-arguments for the sake of clarity.
“It’s not a sex inequality issue cause it can’t be solved by sex equality, unless you consider equal number of women dying a solution.”
Let me blow your mind: yes, I would consider “equal number of women dying” a better situation.
Like so:
In my country, last year, there were 751 work fatalities, of which 696 were men and 55 were women. That is so mostly because men are overrepresented in dangerous industries and hazardous jobs. If those same jobs were filled in roughly equal numbers by men and by women, we would end up with roughly the same number of total work deaths, but split more evenly between the two sexes. That would not be a worse net outcome (it’s the same unfortunate number of fatalities), but the gender imbalance itself would be gone. (And yes, obviously, every sane person would at the same time advocate for more safety equipment, better work conditions and security checks, etc. for everyone. But that’s a separate issue.)
There you go. I just proved to you that this mostly-male issue can “be solved by sex equality” (your words).
For the last time: will you admit that work deaths are “a sex inequality issue”?
(Also: you retorted dismissively “unless you consider equal number of women dying a solution” but, how could “equal number of {women/men} {outcome}” ever be a bad idea, if one considers him/herself an egalitarian, a feminist, a non-sexist? Try it: “equal number of women managing companies”; “equal number of men earning PhDs”; “equal number of women using drugs”; “equal number of men working at nurseries”… “Equal number of {women/men} {outcome}’” should be quite literally the motto of someone who is for equality of the sexes!)
“Yes men hate OTHER men.”
This one sentence summarises very nicely where you’re coming from.
Men hate other men? Speak for yourself!
/cc @b6hydra
@tripu So you did shred it intentionally avoiding my main singular point and trying to derail like a madman? Good to know. And now you are plucking a phrase out of context, intentionally misinterpreting it and tagging the one other participant of the thread… simply amazing.
I’m also glad that we finally established that you don’t see a difference between cause and effect, action and consequence, solution and outcome. The statistic becoming even is not solution to the work deaths problem or sex inequality, it’s an outcome you would expect when you solve the inequality in completely different ways, which would be mainly cultural shifts towards giving women more agency in society, and diminishing patriarchy.
@b6hydra