My point of view about the situation in #Spain (/cc @admitsWrongIfProven):
“The gouvernment that brought you good things for the people”
Err… sure. What government does not bring at least some “good things for the people”?
“I heard nothing negative about them in terms of caring for the people”
Not sure I understand. One does not need to hear anything specific to know that in a democracy of ~48M people millions of voters think that the government is not “caring for the people” properly, much, or at all.
In this case: I think this government “didn’t care” much for the youth (transfers of wealth from younger generations to boomers in the form of public pensions, massive public debt and a two-tier job market), for men (a divisive strand of feminism), for women (ditto, cf trans issues), for immigrants (several scandals about that), for entrepreneurs and freelancers (populist rhetoric against wealth and corporations), for the middle class (tax hikes), for students (our PISA scores are shameful), for the Sahrawis (they abandoned them to appease Morocco), or for truth and science (too many examples to cite).
“The only violence i heard of is […] not the catalans”
There has been very little violence from any side, fortunately. (But lots of hatred.)
The crimes that will be erased now are mostly non-violent ones: rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds.
“An amnesty seems a good idea to keep the peace”
Roughly half of the population here disagrees. Recent History has proven otherwise: the more that institutions have appeased the separatists and made concessions to them, the more radical and defiant they grew.
“Fascists will never keep peace”
I agree. Those whose crimes will be erased, those who signed the deal with #PedroSánchez, are fascists. As you say, they will never keep peace. For years they have been trying to silence dissenters, banning certain ideas, appealing to nativist ideas, encouraging hatred towards other Spanish regions, attacking minorities and the individual, expecting groupthink, bending the facts and distorting History, and glorifying the idea of a nation.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Who are the fascists is very clear. Those who show Swastikas and the fascist salute, show symbols of the Franco regime and sing songs from the fascist "blue division". These things happens daily during the protests against the amnesty.
Yes, those are fascists too.
The good news is, nobody’s signing a deal with them.
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
Oh, but they did. PP signed several agreements with fascist party Vox.
That’s a dishonest sleight of hand that you did there.
The PP hasn’t signed agreements with anyone “who show Swastikas and the fascist salute”.
Any organisation with more than a few members has a fringe, freaks, psychopaths.
We have to analyse what the leaders say and do. Otherwise, no major party would come out unscathed.
The PSOE was (and will continue to be) in power with Podemos. The leaders of Podemos are avowed communists. The radical left has its own share of goons and even killers.
Anyway, none of this is relevant. I despise Vox, too. I don’‘t want them in power. I won’t defend “the right”.
For the sake of making progress in the debate, assume we agree: Vox is made up of fascists. And the right is full of resentment.
How does any of that make this specific amnesty legal or ethical?
@tripu @admitsWrongIfProven
It's very simple: Fascists (as Vox) are the enemies of democracy. By agreeing to form coalitions with them the PP has excluded itself from other options.
Puidgemont, Junts and other seperatist parties are not opposed to democracy. I don't support their ideas and I think, seceding from Spain is would be a terrible mistake.
But they don't want to overthrow the government, put elected people in jail, abolish human rights, or similar things that only fascists do.
“Puidgemont, Junts and other seperatist parties are not opposed to democracy”
They are.
Exhibit A: nine years ago, the separatist Catalan government authorised police force to stop a popular “multireferendum” about a number of social issues in Catalonia, confiscating ballot boxes. Clearly, the Catalan leaders do not think that casting a ballot is always okay.
Exhibit B: Neither Puigdemont nor his party believe in self-determination of peoples as a principle: in 2014, the party and Puigdemont himself voted against a parliamentary motion for the self-determination of the Palestinians and the Syrian Kurds, and against a referendum for the independence of the Saharawi people of the West Sahara.
Exhibit C: When asked about the possibility of regions within Catalonia (eg, Tarragona, the Aran Valley) being given the chance to become independent themselves, to stay in Spain, or to become part of France, Puigdemont and his acolytes have consistently either evaded the question or answered negatively.
