Visual example...
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@freemo@qoto.org
@freemo The map might be more interesting if the color intensity would be according to the size of the population. Maybe the reds will be terribly washed out compared to the blues.
@trinsec @freemo This one sort of does that. A "dot for every vote".
https://carto.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=8732c91ba7a14d818cd26b776250d2c3
@LouisIngenthron @trinsec @freemo One person, one vote. This map best represents the voting make up of the country.
Land don't vote!
@thegonzoism @LouisIngenthron @trinsec
We have electorial colleges in the usa, so no it isnt one person one vote. We do this to ensure the interest of all groups and cultures must be considered and grouos that respresent minorities are less likely to be abused. Makes sense to me.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec The electoral college only matters for one vote every four years. The popular vote matters the rest of the time, especially on local matters.
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
As well it shoukd be. The oresident resides over all regions and as such should be accepted by all cultures and regions. He should be discouraged from throwing minority cultures under a bus.
A congressman only has to represent his one district, he is local in nature, so he doesnt have to consider diverse cultures across different states and regions as he covers a small local area.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec
(A) The electoral college seems to break in favor of the GOP, who minorities overwhelmingly vote against, so your theory there doesn't really match reality.
(B) Though a congressperson may only represent their district, they vote on legislation that affects the entire country, so that logic doesn't work. I don't want to elect someone who doesn't want to fund snowplows on northern highways just because he's from Florida.
We arent talki g racial minorities, we are talking american cultures. Southern culture, amish terretories, mennonite terretories, etc. Its not about race, wrong sort of minority in this context.
The logic works fine, there are senators that represent those other areas and their culture, so its fine. We also balance that out in a different way, by adding a fixed number of sentators as a base and then addind more due to population. This evens out the densities in a similar way.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec Funny, I didn't say "race"...
The senators are elected with the exact same popular vote system as the house members. How is that different?
The senate doesn't "even out the densities". If anything, it makes the representation far more lopsided than it should be by, again, correlating arbitrary geographic boundaries with voting power.
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
No they arent elected the same.
In the house the number of seats per stste is based on population, bigger get more. The senate is fixed with each stste getting 2 and only 2. This ensures states that have low populations and are mostly red states in this case, get more representstion per person.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec ...and do you think that's a good thing?
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
As ive stated, if balanced correctly (the numbers need twesking sometines) then yes. It prevents a tyranny of the minority as discussed. It ensures the various cultures we have who are small isolated groups (like the amish) dont get thrown under a bus for the whims of the majority
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec I gotta say, living in a country where we literally enslaved people, I'm much more concerned about the tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of the minority.
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
Sorry the phrase i meant to use was tyrwnny of the majority.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec Well, I gotta say, if that's the goal, then weighting human beings' votes based on arbitrary, archaic geographic borders seems like an especially poor method of achieving it.
As America's population grows, new cities will bloom in currently-vacant states. Once there's a metropolis in every state, how well will this system prevent that "tyranny" you're concerned about?
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
Thats why we tweak the numbers as populations change to balance it again. Weve done it a few times iirc.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec We do in the house, which is actually somewhat representative, yes. But there's no tweaking in the senate. The boundaries of the states are fixed and there are two senators per state.
Which means that a person from Wyoming's vote is about 68x more powerful than a person from California in the Senate.
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
Yes but in the house the vote strongly favors california. It makes sense to me that the house shoukd be balanced for population and the senate flat. It ensures there must be both a majority acceptance, and a state-majority acceptance to pass new laws...
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec California has 30% more people than the second most populous state. For a vote to favor California is a sign that people are being properly represented. (And I don't like it any more than you; even living in the land of Florida Man, I think California is bonkers.)
Honestly, the better answer, in my opinion, would be to break up both California and Texas into into about three states each. That would allow better representation of the people in their local areas, instead of being lumped in with 40 million others.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec Right, because they have more people. If you're measuring a vote by both number of people and breaking it down by geographic regions, then a fair vote should logically "favor" the geographic region with the most voters. That's simple statistics, not a problem to be solved.
Yes its about balancing the two... States each have their own laws, their own governance and their own cultures (to an extent)...A state is more like a country in some ways.
Its a bit like saying the USA should be able to dictate what the middle east can do in the UN simply because we have more people... If a state wants to keep its population down, and its people are **responsible** enough to keep a low population which is healthier for the people and environment, they shouldnt be penalized for it... It makes a great deal of sense that each state gets its own vote that is only partly weighted by population, and partly flat.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec I strongly disagree. Weighting votes by population density doesn't seem that far off from weighting votes by skin color. It gives unfair preference to certain people just because they were lucky enough to be born into a certain culture.
Having your vote be worth the same as your fellow countrymen's isn't a "punishment" just because you don't have enough like-minded people around to win.
There needs to be a way to protect states rights, to ensure larger states cant bullt smaller states into changing their laws... I am ok with any solution that does this, what we have is the best I know of so far.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec Why should states' rights override humans' rights?
They shouldnt, which is why within a state every person should have an equal vote for representation in that state. Therefore everyone has equal rights, and each state has fair representation as well without being overhelmed by the will of other states.
This is hardly a new concept, it is the way virtually every union of member states operates, with each state fairly electing its own governnance and then those respected governments each representing themselves in the greater union.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec Also, it is not the "way virtually every union of member states operates". It is, in fact, the way very few of them operate.
Thats a link to democracies, not unions, so not related... UNIONS all operate this way whether its the EU, the UN, or NATO.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec All non-tiny countries are unions of subdivided geography and culture.
And the EU, UN, and NATO, aren't comparable to the US. Those are alliances, not sovereign countries.
A union is a very specific thing... having lots of cultures and geography is not a union.. a union is a collection of nation-states.. I listed the three examples of unions that are most noted, there arent oo many others (the UK can be considered one but it is so irregular many of its members are barely treated like members, like canada, so its just not a good example).
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec Then the US doesn't qualify as a union. Our states are not "nation-states". They are not sovereign, they do not have their own militaries, they do not engage in their own diplomacy.
We very much are a union of states. This has been well established since the earliest days of the USA.
There are also tons of countries that font follow your criteria (for example countries with no military, and which dont engage in their own diplomacy). None of that is required to be considered a state.
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
Oh and states in the USA **are** considered to have their own sovereignty.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec No, they absolutely do not. By definition, they gave that up to join the union.
Nope state soverignty is explicitly recognized by the supreme court of the united states. It is said to be garunteed by the 10th amendment.
One such quote:
"But the Court found that “there are attributes of sovereignty attaching to every state government which may not be impaired by Congress, not because Congress may lack an affirmative grant of legislative authority to reach the matter, but because the Constitution prohibits it from exercising the authority in that manner.”
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec That term, "state sovereignty", describes what sovereignty is left to the states after the rest has been taken by the feds, as defined in our constitution. It describes the *limits* of their sovereignty. It is not a declaration of their sovereignty, which would require them to be wholly independent, by definition.
No you are thinking of a specific type of sovereignty called "Westphalian sovereignty".. not all sovereignty means that there is no other authority or no complex hierarchy... that is the colloqual use of the term, but int he case of unions it is more nuanced.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec Every dictionary I can find disagrees with you.
@freemo @thegonzoism @trinsec No, you didn't. The link you sent earlier described the limits on their sovereignty.
Yes it described the limits on **their sovreignty**... it explicitly stated they were sovreign and the nature of that sovreignty, namely, where and how it applies.
@LouisIngenthron @thegonzoism @trinsec
Its not complicated... if you break federal law but do so within the confines of a state then the federal governemtn cant legally act.. you must be tried by the state, and if hte state laws make what you did legal, then your found innocent regardless of federal law.
We see this constantly with all sorts of laws, namely cannabis. Federally illegal but you can literally safely sell it in the open without the federal government doing anything about it... why.. state sovreignty.
@freemo @thegonzoism That's just not true. If it were, then most federal laws would be unenforceable.
The reason most federal laws are enforcable is because they are recognized by the state, so the state will enforce them. In the case of cannabis laws the states refuse to nenforce the federal laws and thus most growers and sellers are untouchable.
By the way this is exactly why most cannabis sellers in legalized states cant use credit cards.. Credit cards cause commerse to go across state lines since the credit card companies operate internationally.. so simply taking credit cards is usually enough for the feds to be able to swoop in... But again as long as they are careful to not operate in any way across state lines they are safe due to the sovereignty of the state.
@freemo @thegonzoism No, it's because credit card companies and banks refuse to work with them because they don't want to risk violating federal law.
That would make no sense since you can use your debit card to make purchases so long as your bank is a local state bank (I do it all the time)...
But your right, banks that operate across states would get in trouble, which is exactly what I just said... but the banks that dont operate across states are free to do so. Which is why i cant use my visa when i buy it but i can use my local debit card just fine.
@freemo @thegonzoism I'm calling bullshit on that. Most debit cards are run by the same companies as the credit cards. My local bank debit cards are Visas. That sounds like they're just trying to avoid credit card fees rather than the law.
@freemo @thegonzoism Also... I don't think a vendor can limit which banks work for debit cards on merchant accounts. So, they'd have no way to limit it to "local state banks", and they'd have to be very careful to keep updated on which "local state banks" are actually local and which are owned elsewhere.
That whole claim just doesn't pass the smell test...
Not sure how they limit it, but they make it very clear with a list of banks they accept.. its like 20 banks or so they have on a piece of paper you see at checkout. They look at your debit card before swiping it, I suspect to check the bank, but I dunno.
@freemo @thegonzoism That sounds like they've established a pre-existing agreement with the banks on the list... Maybe most big banks will flag transactions with weed shops, causing the vendor's merchant account to get locked out, but maybe they've made a deal with these banks to not flag their transactions?
That is very strange, though.
I've got a few connections with people who run grow houses and dispensaries.... its pretty common to avoid inter-state transactions for the reasons I've mentioned.
I know its not the vbest argument, and I wish I had a source to cite... But I have worked closely with a lot ofpeople int he industry (including weed maps for example)... most of my knowledge on this comes from directly talking to them and/or their lawyers.
@freemo @thegonzoism Well, yeah, because that makes you more likely to be targeted by the feds, for any type of crime. But I'm still pretty sure it's not a prerequisite to being targeted.
The feds only have two ways to act on cannabis.. 1) you commit a cannbis crime across state boundaries 2) they sue the state itself in federal court.
@freemo @thegonzoism Yeah, gonna need a citation on that. If it were true, there'd be a precedent saying so.
Oh I am sure there are sources out there... I just dont have any and im not a lawyer so i wouldnt know where to look... My understanding comes from hours of lecturing by actual lawyers with my involvement int he cannabis industry.
@freemo @thegonzoism These two law firm sources say that interstate commerce is just one reason of many why a drug crime can be enforced federally:
https://fresnocriminallawyer.com/when-are-drug-crimes-considered-federal-offenses/
https://www.bernelawme.com/differences-between-state-and-federal-drug-crimes/
And this is the FBI's website saying federal agents have full jurisdiction to make arrests for any felony violation of US law.
I wish I remembered the case... there was one case in california where the feds came in and shutdown a grow operation but they were not found to violate any inter-state commerce, and thus state sovreignty was violated.... The state of california managed to sue the federal government over it. I wish I could remember the case....
Just think about murder if you need another example.. if you commit murder you are usually tried in a state court and go to a state prison, despite it being federally illegal. Only time youll be tried in a federal court and go to federal prison is if the murder is somehow involved across state borders. like if you bury the body in another state.
No they only take debit card purchasaes from in-state banks.. bank of america for example they wont take even as a debit card.. so it doesnt line up with your assumptions.
@freemo @thegonzoism That's just demonstrably untrue. Fed raids are a thing that happen regularly. They're in the news!
@LouisIngenthron
Thats what happens when you look up non-technical definitions and ignore the nuance of types ofg legal sovreignty...
I have shared with you legal links that explicitly state that states int ehUSA are conisdered **legally** to be sovreign... I have also given you examples of this manifesting re: cannabis laws.
@thegonzoism @trinsec