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@realcaseyrollins
Ah yes, dangerous gender transition. This seems like a rather biased source.
@jump_spider They're biased but they're not wrong
@realcaseyrollins
What's dangerous about transitioning?
@jump_spider Firstly, it often consists of genital mutilation, and sometimes includes taking a dangerous level of opposite-sex hormones. Apart from that, people who transition often regret their decision later and wish to reverse it.
But some people have the procedure done and are fine, ignoring the self-injury aspect. Although it's morally wrong, it's more important to address these procedures targeting kids. If a kid has these procedures done, his or her bone plates will not develop properly.
@realcaseyrollins
What academic research has lead you to suggest that most of us regret medical transition?
In what moral framework is medical transition "morally wrong"?
What is the functional difference between someone who pays professional to surgically remove part of their cheek such that their teeth are visible (a well known though obviously extreme form of aesthetic body modification) and genital reconstruction surgery? Is one person's idea of self-mutilation not clearly another person's idea of self-actualization?
What medical research has lead you to suggest that hormone replacement therapy for medical transition dangerous?
Have you considered that a desire to detransition may have less to do with personal regret and more to do with how those of us who do not "pass" even after medical transition are treated by others?
To be frank concerning children who wish to medically transition, because they have not reached the legal age of majority and medical transition being still very much bound in legal approval, how would you suggest a child to be able to pursue medical transition at all? A 16-year-old girl can choose to have unprotected sex and there are many who believe she should accept the lifelong consequences and responsibilities that may result from her choice; why should that be different for a transgender child?
Health risks: https://youtu.be/Eaq6kbk0LZ4 (skip to 3:51 for the scientific evidence)
On regretting sex transition surgery:
https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740
Also chopping off a penis is different than ripping out your cheek. Sure, you've lost a part of your body that helps you eat by keeping food in your mouth, but at least you can still eat.
If you get castrated, you cannot procreate. End of story. It completely removes a bodily function. It's more akin to getting two feet amputated.
@jump_spider Also being from America and supporting freedom I do this people should be able to "transition", no matter how unethical that might be. The age question is a good one. I see three logical views:
1. Age of consent. (At a certain age, you can make all self-affecting sexual choices.)
2. When puberty is over. (This means at around ages 10-14 for girls and 12-16 for boys. They know what being their birth gender is like and can decide if they don't like it.)
3. When their brain's developed. (This means around 25 y/o. One can now decide if they want their brain to remain the same or be affected by "transition" surgery.)
@realcaseyrollins
Strictly anecdotally, many of us report emotional and general psychological trauma experienced from the effects of natal puberty. With respect, we know exactly what it's like to be the gender we are; puberty typically only affirms it. If a child expresses genuine interest in suppressing their natal puberty, why should a parent not be able to consent on their behalf to puberty hormone blocker treatment, the same way a parent can consent on a child's behalf to get a lip piercing?
@jump_spider P.S. puberty actually does not affirm it, 75% to 90% of children who say they want to transition decide to stick with their birth sex after they finish puberty.
@realcaseyrollins
Citation, please
@realcaseyrollins
I consider this source to be largely unbiased, thank you. This particular link discusses the scientific validity of the claim you made as well as serious scientific methodological concerns re: how desistance is experimentally operationalized. In short, the claim that an overwhelming or even simple majority of transgender children stop being trans is spurious at best.
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Has anyone bothered to actually weigh the trauma of not having the final say about your own body?
I am not trans, but I can relate rather indirectly. As a kid i had a deep rooted fear of needles, as im sure many kids do. I refused to get them no matter how needed it might be, but my mother insisted.
As a result she took me to a doctor and they strapped me down as I kicked and screamed and bit so they could draw blood. They eventually got the needle in me and I was too violent for them to get the vein and they gave up (might have helped that i kicked the doctor right in the balls as he tried to tie me up, no regrets). She tried this with a few other doctors all with the same result.
By the end of this ordeal, having no say over my own body, I was deeply fearful of all doctors even my own mother. I refused to go to a doctor, if she pulled up to a hospital or doctors office I would escape or tie myself into the car. To this day if i am in a hospital or doctors office i feel a sense of panic, which luckily I can overcome. But it is clear this violation of my body led to some degree of psychological harm.
I did later on have a doctor my mom brought me to who recognized this. He took me as his patient but made it clear to my mom he would refuse to do any treatment on me without my consent (and hers of course). When they needed to take blood and i refused he took a therapist type approach and isntead of forcing me let me know in the end it was up to me but also explained what that meant, the reprocutions i might face if i refused and some ways he could protentially help to make the expiernce better (including numbing agents). Eventually this worked and helped to offset a good deal of the trauma and eventually volunteers for the medical help I needed. Being on my terms and getting the last say was critical.
I think most children are far far more capable of rationalizing the future and the consequence of their actions that most people give them credit for.
@freemo
I applaud your sharing of your personal experience. As a trans adult, and from discussion with several dozens of trans people both in person and in several online communities, I can share that the systemic denial of one's own bodily autonomy is, in a word, *exhausting*. Radical critics paint trans adults as predatory wrt trans children, but their perspective ignores the simple truth that we remember vividly what it was like growing up.
@realcaseyrollins
That is the single biggest driving thought in my own acceptance of children going through hormone therapy, body autonomy, combined with the fact that hormones are only fully effective pre-puberty, while they do work to some extent post-puberty they are far less effective and sometimes, especially in older adults, have no effect at all.
In the end the only one who will have to deal with the consequences is the child, so they should have the final say unless they have demonstrated (not through age but demonstrated) they are not of sound mind and body.
@realcaseyrollins
Your question is unrelated because it is a false equivalency. Voluntarily becoming addicted to a substance is not a human right
@freemo
@jump_spider @freemo I didn't say anything about getting addicted. (For instance, plenty of people smoke cigars and are not addicted.) Your statement itself is a false equivalency, that smoking = addiction.
That is a very good question. As a parent if a child smokes I feel you probably raised your child poorly. This is best addressed not by physically preventing them from smoking but by teaching them why it is a bad choice.
the fact is most parents dont raise their kids very well, and part of that is exactly that mentality of having the last say about their body. Most kids who go and smoke tobacoo likely do it in defiance for a parent who doesnt give the child the responsibility and teaching to make the choice correctly.
So yes in society we do prevent kids from smoking, but we have it alllll backwards.
@freemo @jump_spider I like consistency. If a kid can't smoke or get a tat they shouldn't be able to make a bigger decision, like chopping off their private parts.
As i said before, I would argue that kids should be allowed to get a tattoo or smoke, presuming they can demonstrate they understand their decision. This demonstration should not be based on age but rather how a person speaks and acts.
I'd say the same for an adult. If someone is 40 years old and clearly is speaking in a way that they cant understand what is going on around them, then they should be denied a cigerette.
I have long held that rights should not be age-dependent as they currently are but should be granted based on ones demonstration of coherence.
@freemo @jump_spider As Jump Spider rightly pointed out, what would be your criteria for "understanding"?
The same criteria we currently use to determine if we have a right to commit an adult to an asylum against their will.
Most people can tell the difference between someone using reasoning vs someone who can not reason. IEven if you disagree with their reasoning.
For example i disagree with your logic here but it is clear you are capable of using your own reasoning to work through the problem and that you are capable of perceiving reality with that reason.
@freemo @jump_spider I'm not familiar with that criteria, is it objective or subjective?
@realcaseyrollins
It is a common and malignant misconception that anyone of significance has ever advocated for full genital reconstruction surgery for a person under the age of majority
@freemo
@jump_spider @freemo Should parents be able to put a child under the age of majority through full genital reconstruction surgery?
And again this ignores the damage done by hormone suppression medication prior to puberty.
As we agreed the evidence is conflicting, some suggests it causes damage pre-puberty other evidence suggests it prevents damage. Since we already agreed to that you cant fall back on the idea that it causes damage, we already agreed we dont know, at least objectively.
As I covered earlier if hormone therapy helps it is only really fully effective pre-puberty. It will **not** have the same level of results post-puberty as pre-puberty that is the critical point here.
Genital reconstruction you can do later and no real harm done, it will be just as effective later on. So I'd say that generally that particular procedure should wait until a bit later in life. But hormone therapy is a very different beast and if it is be done, if it is to effective, it must be done pre-puberty or else it may not work at all.
@freemo @jump_spider Fair point on the pre vs post puberty point. This is what I have found:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/mtf-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/ftm-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099
If it werent for the simple fact that it is mostly only fully effective pre-puberty then i would be much quicker to agree with you that it should wait until after 18. But that one fact really makes it a tough call.
@freemo
@realcaseyrollins
The nature of hormones being highly individuated even without deliberate manipulation precludes any chance of "proving definitively" that it is effective at lessening dysphoria; even if it does, there are trade offs. The obvious methodology for any treatment like that is informed consent, not setting up as many legal and procedural hoops as possible to discourage people from even pursuing it.
Cisgender people are typically offended that we even come out, the "concern bombing" of making sure we medically transition "safely" is ludicrous. If there was genuine interest in improving safe efficacious treatment, they would be bloody funding into transgender research and not lip service legal compliance that only accomplishes normalizing this kind of armchair discussion about what's right and wrong concerning a life experience that is actively maligned as "going against the one true God's plan."
My apologies if my perspective is offensive. Being told my existence is inherently sinful causes my sense of indignation to flare up.
I suspect collins concern is genuine, though I agree for many it is more based out of hate. But I dont think thats the case we have here with anyone in this conversation. I think the concerns are real for the participants here and born out of compassion. I think thats true for a lot of cishet gendered people.
Its a serious decision and very permanent and needs to be done at a young age. I think there is a real legitimate need for caution, though i do agree that should be up to the individual and not a matter of law.
But I think people, many, do care it is just misdirected sadly.
1. This sort of brings me to another concern I have, which is potentially a parent forcing or coercing a child to undergo transition, not out of their free will. By the ages I listed (I think about 14 years old at the youngest) they should be able to articulate whether the choice is actually theirs or just something the parent(s) wants them to do.
2. You have a right to hold whatever opinion you wish! And you are not sinful for merely existing. (Well actually per Romans 3:23 "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" but you are not more evil or sinful than me just for being trans. 💙)
@realcaseyrollins
Thank you for the clarification.
@freemo
@freemo @jump_spider Why don't we let them smoke then?