@freemo @mur2501 @trinsec By the way I found the discussion about the Enlightenment and science to be interesting. I kind of have a different opinion that lines up a lot with what Trinsec said about Muslim countries being stuck in political dysfunction. The historical background is very long and complicated but as you probably noticed most Muslim countries today have become weak, impoverished, and unstable. This comes with intractable societal dysfunction, despotic and corrupt governments, and so on. *It's very tempting* when your country is prosperous and nice to go down that path of, "We're doing so great because we have the best culture, religion, way of thinking, etc." It's like when rich people say to themselves they are rich because they're just the best people, and poor people are poor because they're bad. I tend to avoid thinking that the success or failure of countries rests on whether or not "Islam" itself is good, or our success is because "we did religion right" / "because we're atheist" / "because we correctly understood Christianity". These rationalizations always come after the fact.

To me the Enlightenment as a concept popularized in European historiography, to what extent it was a real phenomenon, cannot be universalized and is just something unique to European society. I'm not sure people outside of Europe can really relate to the conditions or thinking that bring about this concept. (Did Europeans even relate? Or were so-called Enlightment thinkers always a privileged, minority voice in a broader society that didn't relate to them?) For one thing it relies on a belief that religion and science are opposing forces. If you mistakenly tried to project these ideas onto Muslim societies or histories you would make a few wrong assumptions like, "Muslims were less religious back when they were having their scientific golden age; now they've traded science for religion." Actually a lot of these scientific scholarly dudes 1000 years ago in the Muslim world who were advancing mathematics and medicine were also reading and writing books on theology and religious philosophy urging orthodox Islamic piety. That's just how they looked at the world back then.

But yeah I would say the single thing most Muslim countries need now more than anything is education. I wouldn't say their religion is bad or good, because whether they pray in Arabic or wear certain clothes or practice sobriety is all well and good, BUT it's the higher-level functions that need reform. (I argue this transcends mere religion.) More information and a broader worldview will help them to make the right choices. I think we're seeing this more and more now with the sudden rise of education and connectedness in the Muslim world. (Just look at Internet usage.) It's true these countries lagged behind in modernization; they suffered several major shocks in the 20th century. Things are predictably rocky, but they'll smooth out soon. A bit more stability in their lives and having their basic material needs met will help a lot of people to chill out.