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@kctipton well much like the far-right it is hard to distinguish which statements originate from the russians/china themselves. The only clue we have is the friendliness of the far-right/left, and the general consistency in talking points, often expressed in ways that are self-defeating or meant to be divisive.
depends on the country you are talking about. In the USA a huge portion of the left is "far-left" and radicalized in all sorts of ways (just as the USA has a huge far-right problem)... Thankfully in much (not all) of the rest of the world you'd be right, there isnt much of a far-left or far-right in say, the Netherlands. The prevelance of the far-left seems limited to the USA, but for anyone not on the extremes of the spectrum they are a very obvious and pervasive group for sure.
In fact the USA is so polarized they tend to exist on the extremes of almost any issue, even non-political ones.
If you are unable to even see the existance of the far-left, much like people on the far-right, its a strong indicator you may be on the far-left.
That said I dont know you, or your opinions. so it is only suggestive at best. I'd need to know more about your opinions to even speculate why you are blind to such an overwhelmingly obvious segment of the populace. So I cant really say why you cant see it when its right in front of your face.
Yes thats intentional. For anyone ont he far-left they would have responded in a similar sense as you have, and would be a quite fruitless conversation if I tried... now im not saying you are on the far-left either, but i generally calculate the likelyhood a conversation will have value and the odds seem low here is all, though maybe im wrong and you are quite good at not being biased and would in fact have had a good conversation, who knows, either way that wasnt the bet I was willing to make.
I mean really, if a right wing person told you they didnt think extremism existed in any reasonable numbers on the right, would you think that person stood any chance of having a productive conversation to the contrary?
@andytiedye @freemo @kctipton Freemo may not want to give out examples, but I'll wade into that muck. I'm a left-leaning-centrist with libertarian tendencies, so most of what I define as "far left" are good ideas at their core, but taken to the extreme.
A good example is gun control. Most Americans (including most gun owners) are in favor of reasonable gun control. The far left takes this to the extreme, though, and advocates outright banning of guns, usually based on arbitrary factors like what shape or color they are.
A second, quick example would be the whole "forgive student loans" thing. That was entirely driven by the far left in this country.
Another example is environmentally friendly cars. Most people are for electric vehicle subsidies, and improving charger infrastructure... to an extent. But California's attempt to ban non-electric vehicles (while its grid still runs more than 50% on natural gas, and the state faces widespread power shortages!) is endemic of far-left thinking, putting the cart before the horse.
Finally, you have free speech. Both the far left and the far right threaten free speech, but from opposite directions. The far right wants to ban books about homosexuality, while the far left wants the state to punish "disinformation" and charge Trump with incitement over nonsense (a lefty account I saw recently suggested he should be indicted for using the word "fight" on Truth Social, despite the fact that Dems use that term to refer to 'electoral fights' just as often).
So, yeah, I have to agree with Freemo that it's one of those things where, if you can't see it, it might be because you're in the middle of it.
All examples I would agree with here. My avoidance of giving examples is largely just because i expect this to be followed by a toxic shit storm, blocks, and just general fruitlessness.... I hope im wrong.
@freemo Hence what I referred to as "wading into the muck" lol
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @kctipton @freemo @andytiedye hold on.. you’re all over the place; lot to unpack; this should really be dozen separate threads. W.r.t guns, dems (that means USian liberals not EU liberals) advocate gun *control* not gun *prohibition*. You’ve subcategorized prohibition under “gun control” & it distorts & muddies the water. It attempts to use a fraction of 1% extreme minority as reps for mainstream dems.
@andytiedye @kctipton @LouisIngenthron @freemo One thing that puts me off buying a gun is that every single gun sold in the US comes from an #NRA supporting entity. There is no way for liberals to buy a gun w/out feeding the NRA. Even if you want a Bereta from Italy, their US-based import company finances the NRA.
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @kctipton @andytiedye can’t watch videos right now, but looks like it could be interesting
Given where your interests lie I suspect you might find it interesting.
@koherecoWatchdog @andytiedye @kctipton @freemo Right. Ironically, you'd need to go to a state with a gun show loophole to buy from a private seller.
I think his issue isnt just that the gun shops themselves support the NRA, but also that the gun manufacturers support the NRA.
He could custom-build though. You can buy the parts from third-parties and assemble yourself. Lots of gun people do that.
@freemo @koherecoWatchdog @andytiedye @kctipton Probably both. The NRA got its stranglehold on the industry by offering insurance to gun shops and ranges when nobody else would. Now it's nearly impossible to find any gun-related-business in America that doesn't have ties to the NRA.
@LouisIngenthron @kctipton @andytiedye @freemo I think it wouldn’t be too hard to find an nra-detached reseller. But every single maker has ties.
@koherecoWatchdog @kctipton @andytiedye @freemo Lol, good luck. I've never seen one.
But, yeah, of course the mfrs do. The NRA is specifically the lobbying group for the manufacturing industry (not for owners like most people think). To find one without ties would be like finding a real estate agent who's not a member of the National Association of Realtors.
@freemo @kctipton @andytiedye @LouisIngenthron I recall a police dept having a gun buyback program. They were giving like $200 per shotgun. So a guy bought some pipes & built 3 handmade shotguns, brought them down to the police station and sold the lot for $600. It complied w/the terms of the program so they had to accept them.
@koherecoWatchdog @freemo @kctipton @andytiedye Lol, that's pretty smart.
Next time there is a police buyback program that offers 200$ per gun ill set up a little shop next door that says "We buy guns, 250$ per gun!"
@freemo @koherecoWatchdog @kctipton @andytiedye Have you seen the crap that ends up in police buyback programs? You'd lose sooooo much money.
@koherecoWatchdog @LouisIngenthron @kctipton @andytiedye
I should also point out, to confuse things more, I see two forms of extremism at play... there is extremism of views,a nd extermism of application. A peaceful levelheaded communist willing to discuss philosophy in good faith might have an extremism of views, but is not particularly extreme in their application... meanwhile a more moderate left person who will block you if you have any deviation of opinion, or might be violent and cause riots in support of hillary might not have the most extreme views but clearly extreme in their application.
So to muddy the waters more I have a tendency to lump these two together when i talk about "far-left", which may not be the best for communication purposes.
@koherecoWatchdog @freemo @kctipton @andytiedye Yes, I was providing examples, so it's all over the place by nature.
More importantly, my post was about the far left, not democrats. There's overlap there, but they are two separate groups. Democrats as a whole generally don't go for gun bans, but the far left does.
@LouisIngenthron @andytiedye @freemo @kctipton This leads to the horseshoe theory of politics wherein there is not a huge difference in practice between the extreme Left and the extreme Right. At least, they do the same sorts of bad things. Both put their enemies in camps, both have large scale executions of people they don't like. Both ban all non-approved opinions.
And when the extreme Left gets too much power, they mess things up, and the extreme Right looks like a solution to many people.
@LouisIngenthron @andytiedye @freemo @kctipton I want to suggest that maybe most of the "radicalization" is in rhetoric, not actual policy preferences. For example, the silly nonsense around accusing Trump of being an evil bad man for using words like "fight" or "You have to show strength, and you have to be strong". There's no policy question there, it's purely a matter of hyperbolic, divisive, distracting rhetoric. (It riles up the faithful, but at the expense of losing credibility with the normies.)
Bad (incoherent) policies like EV-only or "assault weapon" (whatever that is) bans happen and always have, right? I don't know if I'd describe them as extreme? Are they really "far left" or radical? It feels like the interesting axis they're on is more about stupid/incoherent than about "radical left v. right". Some people do have more radical positions, like banning all guns, or eliminating women's sports entirely, and so on, but I think they're still extreme minorities. (Not minorities on mastodon.social, but in the US.)
"forgive student loans" Isn't really extreme left, is it? It's pretty bougie; "welfare for the rich" kind of thing – sop to white D voters, essentially racism.
@ech @andytiedye @freemo @kctipton
To your first point, I have literally heard people on the far left argue that Trump's rhetoric should land him in prison. In that sense, it's really no better than "lock her up".
I would argue that those policies are far left. For the gun example, you have the full spectrum: far left (ban 'em all), centrist (reasonable gun control), and far right ("shall not be infringed").
No, the student loan thing was entirely driven by the far left. It stands as Biden's main concession to them so far in his term. I agree with the problems with targeting... that's a big reason I opposed the measure. But it seems (this is anecdotal based on the far left folks I argued with about it) that the lefties convinced themselves that college-educated minorities would disproportionately benefit, and they rode that wave all the way in.
@LouisIngenthron @freemo @kctipton California is not banning non-electric vehicles despite widespread misreporting to the contrary.
New vehicles sold after 2035 in California will have to be electric or plug-in hybrid. The latter seems an obvious choice if charging infrastructure is inadequate.
@freemo your post is fantastical.
You are right, it is a fantastic post ;)
@freemo @andytiedye @kctipton , I'm a libertarian communist, about as far left as you can get, and there really aren't many people where I am. Even the progressives are middle of the political spectrum, at best....
@JonKramer @andytiedye @kctipton
There are quite a few aspects of what constitutes "far-left"... not all far-left is the same.. sure communism is fairly far left but its not that simple... there is a long checklist of things that exist somewhere on the left and there is even much wiggle room within the tip of the spectrum. Maybe, for example your a communist who beleives in gun rights, and therefore show perhaps a few extreme views but mixed along the spectrum. You also dont have to be full on communist to be far left, europe is still capitalist and not even socialist for example, pro socialism would be pretty far left in european terms too (though keep in mind im not talking about the casual use of socialism as a term. but actual socialism, which doesnt exist in almost any modern governments).
@freemo @kctipton I'm in California and I'm not seeing radicalized far-left anything.
What is this "far left" of which you speak?