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@freemo Hey, I'm one of those folks. There was a pretty big difference between his campaigning/debating skills in 2020 vs 2024, which is what led us to change our minds. He's just not the man he was.
And yet, I had no trouble seeing the obvious dementia in 2020 and was clearly correct. The only difference is the dementia progressed to the point that it got worse and at a certain point no amount of denial will get you through it.
But the fact is, reflect on that. Clearly people were screaming he had dementia, the fact that you didnt think he did and it turned out he did suggests perhaps you were blinded to the truth and couldnt see what was obvious to everyone else.
The real takeaway here is if you couldnt even tell a person with severe rapid onset dementia has a problem, what other issues are you unable to see due to biases? Perhaps you should rethink how harshly you criticize someones opinion of your candidate as well if you were blocking people who said that.
Oh well nothing too bad about just disagreeing and being wrong. But even so sounds like a good opportunity to reflect and consider what other blind spots you may have, since that was a pretty big one IMO.
Are you saying back then you would have admitted he had dementia but just that his dementia was mild enough you voted for him anyway? Because thats a very different argument then disagreeing with people who claimed he had dementia at all.
@freemo I think there were some signs of it, but because of his history of having a stutter and overcoming it, it was a bit concealed. Plus, he retained his ability to continue campaigning successfully, so most of us just decided to work with what we had.
Remember, most dems didn't want Biden at the 2020 primary. It was only because we couldn't agree on anyone else and he was the least offensive. He was almost nobody's first pick.
@trinsec Werent you one of the ones who were pretty adamant about him not having dementia. I mean you didnt block and were always polite about it. But I do remember you arguing pretty strongly you didnt see any signs of dementia no?
I'm curious now that the party itself has dropped him due to it, have you changed your mind?
@freemo @trinsec I mean, we knew he was old when we elected him. Nobody that age has *all* their marbles. But the guy he was running against was straight-up insane, so it was an easy comparison.
But at the debate this year, Trump was composed and prepared and cogent. Biden was not. It was a wake-up call not so much about his capacity to lead (he had already proven he could do that), but rather it called into question his ability to campaign and win.
@freemo@qoto.org @louis@ingenthron.social Huh, what? I don't recall. Was it a convo of like 4 years ago? If so, he wasn't that bad back then. He was fairly functional for a long while.
He might have accelerated dementia now, it can come on rather fast. It sucks. People get stubborn and self-defensive when they feel they get attacked due to forgetfulness, it's part of that disease. It's only going to get worse, I feel for his family.
Now look at Trump, he's clearly showing signs of dementia for a long while now and people still worship him. :P
Yes this would have been 4 years ago. You argued he didnt appear to have dementia, I claimed he did. While he may have been more functional you must admit you were incorrect in your assesment he didnt have dementia.
My argument was not that his dementia at the time made him unfit but it was rapidly progressing and thus unfit for a 4 year term, which was true, and at the time you defended against.
Trump shows signs of stupidity, but no he doesnt show signs of dementia of anykind, just plain old idiocy.
@freemo @trinsec To be fair, you don't know for sure he had it back then (or even now), either. Not unless you're a certified mental health professional who has had enough sessions with him to make that call. All we know for a fact is that he's not as sharp as he was, even just a few years ago. Alzheimer's is certainly a plausible explanation for the symptoms, but it's not definitive.
> To be fair, you don't know for sure he had it back then (or even now), either. Not unless you're a certified mental health professional who has had enough sessions with him to make that call.
Apparently not, because I knew for sure he had it, and was right. In fact I have a 100% accurate track record in identifying people with dementia. So the idea that I would need to be a doctor and have many sessions with him to know for sure clearly isnt true since I have shown a near perfect accuracy in the past.
Dementia is easy to diagnose. What isnt easy to diagnose (and what i made no attempt to do) is what kind of dementia he has. In retrospec we can speculate even on that given the rapid onset (its likely lewy-body), but yea the specific form would need some tests. But to just say he has dementia, that is pretty trivial and not a hard call to make, like at all.
Wouldnt you say that depends on what your diagnosing? There are plenty of things that are pretty trivial to diagnose at a glance. Classical Down Syndrom for example would be pretty trivial to diagnose.
As someone who has worked deeply int he medical field you come to realize what things are very obvious to spot and which things are more subtle. His dementia wasnt even remotely subtle.
@freemo @trinsec Well, pregnancy should be one of the most obvious long-term medical diagnoses that could be made by a layman, and there are still endless stories of people fucking that up to the point where it's become a sitcom trope.
I think if you say "he likely has dementia", then you're safe, but as soon as you make a declarative statement of fact, you're on much shakier ground. For all you know, it's entirely possible that he's been severely sleep deprived for every TV appearance.
I'd argue pregnancy is actually not something you can very easily diagnose at all. Its quite hard to distinguish a pregnant woman you dont know with an overweight woman you dont know.
So that seems like a moot argument, Imean there is no doubt things you cant diagnose very easily at a glance, and pregnancy is one of them. But a trained eye can pick up dementia a mile away, as I said the only thing you cant tell is the form.
> I think if you say "he likely has dementia", then you're safe, but as soon as you make a declarative statement of fact, you're on much shakier ground.
There is no magical distinction between "I think" and "it is a fact that..." the only real difference is the level of confidence you have. His dementia was **obvious** and dementia doesnt look remotely like sleep deprivation, sleep deprivation doesnt cause muscular rigidity for example or the same pattern of coordination issues that arise in dementia patients.
For example the famous "Biden is a toddler pooping himself" clip (attached) shows very distinctive dementia characteristics that were present very early on.
@freemo@qoto.org @louis@ingenthron.social Wait, 'you must admit'? Do you have actual proof then that he did have dementia 4 years ago? :P
And even if he'd have dementia 4 years ago, who's to say that it was rapidly progressing at that time?
Meh, don't make assumptions.
The proof would be that he has dementia now and that dementia takes at least 4 or 5 years to progress to this point. So if he has dementia now he most certainly had it then.
Are you arguing he didnt have dementia then and I was wrong and he just suddenly developed it recently and the two are unrelated? That seems like some mental gymnastics honestly.
And we can say it was rapidly progressing at the time because we can see how severe it is now 4 years later. The only dementia that sets in that quickly or faster is mad cow disease form (months)... but in his case progressing this far in 4 years would count as the second fastest progressing type (lewy body demntia) at least. so yea, absolutely rapidly progressing.
@freemo @trinsec Are you certain that you're aware of every other possible medical explanation for the symptoms you've seen and have thoroughly and systematically eliminated them? Without ever having met the patient in person?
This feels very much like that parable of the blinded man who felt an elephant's leg and declared confidently that it was the trunk of a tree.
Being certain of something or asserting it as fact is not the same as saying every possible explanation no matter how unlikely is considered. I mean I also cant prove we arent sitting int he matrix and Biden isnt some sort of computer program.
When we assert certainty, even a doctor, we do so "beyond a reasonable doubt". I am certain "beyond a reasonable doubt" he had dementia, and I turned out to be correct. Does that mean there isnt a 0.000001% chance it is something else... sure, but no one talks like that. Nothing in life is ever certain without any possibility of doubt of any kind. But once it is past a certain threshold we talk and interact as if it is an absolute fact, as well we should.
Whats more important to me is my track record.. When i have high confidence does the percentage of times i turn out to be right match my confidence. If so, it is well founded.
Good point. Regardless of anything else the man was walking around trying to shake hands with people that werent there and the democrats were going "seems fine to me!"
What if he has #Parkinsons AND #Dementia?
You don't meet with a #Parkinsons expert for several months if you don't have #Parkinsons.
@realcaseyrollins @freemo @sergeant @trinsec ...you do if you're working on legislation to help fund Parkinsons research. 🤦♂️
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/07/02/bill-signed-h-r-2365/
Or if you want everyone to think you have parkinsons instead of dementia. Lets not forget the lie he pulled to everyone in the 2020 election that "oh no its not dementia I just have stuttering problem", no one but the democrats bought that for a second.
@freemo @louis @sergeant @trinsec Neither explanations are satisfactory. If #JoeBiden either a) was drafting #Parkinsons legislation with a #Parkinsons expert, or b) wanted the public to think he had #Parksons instead of #Dementia, his team wouldn’t have pushed back on this story so hard even though it was true:
I have a lot of experience with Parkinson (worked with it clinically and my mom has it).. His symptoms dont remotely line up with Parkinson, nor are his motor control issues consistent with parkinsons.
So any speculation aside even a casual familiarity with Parkinson would tell someone this isnt it.
@freemo @louis @sergeant @trinsec Maybe someone else in the family has #Parkinsons?
That is very possible.
Onset age is typically >60.
It is possible Biden has early symptoms of parkinsons, early enough they arent showing publicly. But if that is the case it would be likely unrelated to his dementia.
Also keep in mind there is a type of dementia called parkinsons dementia where he has the symptoms of both with a common underlying cause (lewy body dementia is common)... so if parkinsons is involved it is clearly alongside dementia.
@freemo Lol, well I wasn't calling people Nazis or blocking them. Just disagreeing.
Dementia's a sliding scale. People at the beginning are very high-functioning. So, yes, while he may have been in early stages back then, it wasn't debilitating enough to disqualify him.