Shamar @Shamar@qoto.org

@AbbieNormal

> weirdos (if not worse)

Try to restate this with another oppressed category.

> women (if not worse)
> black (if not worse)
> gay (if not worse)
> gypsy (if not worse)

Are you fine with what you wrote?
I'm not.

To me, such pattern sounds very offensive: being weird is not a defect, just like being woman, black, gay, gypsy or whatever.

> that's a fact of life

No, this is just what your own culture qualify as a fact of life. In another age you would have taken slavery as a fact of life (from ancient Egypt to early US).

> The current GNU is for weirdos

Let's assume this is true.

So someone who today is less weird to #mainstream people decided that weirdos do not deserve access to what they created.

But think for a moment about what is "weird" to mainstream people.

Women who wanted to vote were very weird in the early 20th century.

To many, #LGBTIQ looks very weird.

One could even argue that, from a sociological perspective, all oppressed groups you like spawn from the ever changing and always marginalized group of weirdos.

So you are arguing to take a space from a weak and unrecognised marginalized group to give it to stronger ones who deserve it more.

And, you argue, that's because these stronger marginalized groups have less spaces to meet and organize.

Are you sure this is wise?
You are reproducing the oppression that you suffered.

Even if you don't give a shit about weirdos, are you sure this is politically wise?

When you will win against weirdos you'll open the road for other to win against you!

> Currently, the class of oppressed Andy likes (and I do too) have very few places

And weirdos?
How many place we have?

You know why Andy want to divide and conquer #GNU?

Because it was successful.

If it was just a weird place, he wouldn't give a shit.

But since it's successful, well visible and well known, he (and people like him) want to overtake it.

@phoe

@phoe @AbbieNormal

I can ensure you I care about oppressed people, just like you do.

So why we disagree on the way to maximize actual freedom?

I think that the fundamental issue is about context.

Whenever there are people oppressed there are oppressors that get advantage from the #oppression itself. Usually they rationalize such oppression as natural, necessary and so on. As #Freire used to say, the oppressed people also tend to internalize the oppression so much that they actively work to preserve it.

Now, you might argue that I'm an oppressed myself defending my oppression or that I'm an oppressor defending something that give me some sort of advantage.

But I'm not from any of the oppressed groups that populate US-people remorse: I'm not a woman, I'm not gay, I'm not a person of colour and so on... I've been part of oppressed groups that were oppressed in Italy, but apparently this doesn't qualify me as an oppressed these day.

So maybe I'm an oppressor?

I'd say I'm not, as I've never joined gnu-misc-discuss (or any other GNU list, as far as I can remember), I'm not a #Stallman fanboy (I think that he got #freesoftware wrong!) and I don't even like many of his past arguments. What could I have to gain as an oppressor?

But I see a logical contradiction in what you both say (not this specific post) followed by a rationalization of it.

You argue that giving too much freedom cause oppression so you need a power structure and censorship to counter this effect.

Note that I'm in no way against moderation, but I think it should always be bound to the context. The context of gnu-misc is only defined by #freedom of #GNU. So much that Andy Wingo is free to openly attack the current moderators.

And indeed, if you look at what's happening from this perspective, you can see who is gaining trust and visibility and who is, ultimately, looking for power.

Now I'm pretty sure that Andy will succeed to break GNU and will build something new that is more "oppressed friendly" (for the oppressed that he like and who like him).

BUT they won't solve the issue you are talking about: they will just collect the power to setup a more centralized oppression system, just against someone else (weirdos anyone?).

@phoe

As far as I can tell, there is an unsound logical step in this reasoning.

The freedom to #speak and the freedom to #ignore are both #individual freedoms: they counters one another and are so equivalent that they can both be contemporarily used in a community of #peers.

I totally agree that these are fundamental freedoms we should all learn to respect.

But then you add #trust to turn ONE of these freedoms to a form of #power: the freedom to ignore becomes freedom to mute.
Moreover such power is not over an individual, but over a community: when a moderator #censor a user, he doesn't just restrict the freedom to speech of such user, but he is also restricting the freedom to listen of ALL other users. AND by doing so, the moderator also restrict their freedom to ignore.
So such power over a community is never balanced with the freedoms of individuals.

To me, trust can justify power only if its scope is very well delimited and if its overly easy to clearly identify and instantly dethrone whoever abuse such power.
I'm not sure that EVERY
communication channel of GNU provides such guarantee.

Does gnu-MISC-discuss provide such clearly defined scope?

@AbbieNormal

@maupao

Il problema, a quanto ne so, è solo per l'interfaccia web.

Per cui la soluzione ideale è non usare il browser ma una delle applicazioni installabili: Jitsi Desktop o Jitsi Meet su Android (c'è anche su F-droid!) e iOS.

https://jitsi.org/downloads/

In alternativa, sul browser con #uMatrix installato e configurato correttamente si può comunque evitare di comunicare a Google le stanze cui si accede e con chi si parla.

@wikimediaitalia

@maupao

Scusa se sono noioso, ma attenzione ad usare #JitsiMeet senza #uMatrix.

Se hai un contatto con Matteo Ruffoni potresti suggerirgli di aggiungere qualche nota alla guida. Oppure di proporre l'applicazione invece dell'interfaccia web.

https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/4590

@wikimediaitalia

@phoe

Sorry didn't intend to make you feel attacked. I've had a bad day in a bad period.

Also I've read your words in my reference framework, and that didn't helped either.

Yet, apparently our perspectives are very different, and assuming we are both in good faith, I wonder why and if we can learn something interesting from each other.

Since #freedom is the core value of #FreeSoftware (as defined by #Stallman and #GNU, not me: I think freedom is ancillary to #curiosity, but let's take this for a different debate 😉) freedom of expression and code freedoms are not orthogonal at all: software is a form of expression and we want to keep it free just like any other form.

Yet, if this is childish, I'd like to know what's the "adult" alternative.

And if they are orthogonal (of which I'm not convinced at all), I'd like to know the adult alternatives to each of them, to construct your ideal "adult" value system.

@AbbieNormal

@phoe

So basically you think #FreeSoftware (or #GNU?) was/has been/is childish.

Or maybe #Stallman is childish.

Or maybe #hackers are childish.

Let's assume you are right: what's the "adult" alternative? #LinuxFoundation? #Mozilla? #Google?

@AbbieNormal

@giorgiograppa@mastodont.cat

Alla fine, dopo due settimane di discussioni (non pubbliche) il Partito Pirata ne ha pubblicato una versione edulcorata (retrodatata, in modo che non si notasse il ritardo): https://www.partito-pirata.it/2019/09/abitua-tuo-figlio-alla-sorveglianza/

Un giorno scriverò qualcosa su quanto disgustosa sia stata la mia esperienza nel Partito Pirata italiano.

La cosa pazzesca è che ci sono molte persone in gamba che ruotano intorno al PP, totalmente ignare (o disinteressate) a ciò che sta diventando.

@ekaitz_zarraga

Congrats @ekaitz_zarraga!

🎉 🎉 🎉

Tonight I'll join the campaign too as I want to get a few phisical copies of the book.

I don't know Goteo: can I back your project multiple times to get both the English and the Spanish version of the books?

Learning #Finnish migh be an enlightening experience... 🤔

From ethics washing to ethics bashing: a view on tech ethics from within moral philosophy

https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3351095.3372860?download=true

A must-read.

#Philosophy #ethics #moral #moralism #EthicsWashing #EthicsBashing #Politics #Capitalism #market

I'm starting to think that #uMatrix is something that should be teached at school and distribued with every #browser.

https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix