@js290 @freemo @Surasanji

Before calling myself out of the conversation, I'd like to at least understand the equation.

x'1 means x'*1? x1 is x*1? Why the *1?

@arteteco @freemo @surasanji You only need to know that all the variables affect each other to varying degrees and cannot be treated independently. This is fundamentally why GMOs are problematic. They are being treated independent of time (i.e. survival).

@js290 @freemo @arteteco In Math Orthogonal means right angles.

If you mean statistically independent that is a different kind of Orthogonal.

I do not believe that GMOs are being considered independent of nature. It is a part of the nature we create. According to this study, GM crops tend to use less herbicides and have higher yields, one would assume this would result in a less extreme environmental impact: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111629

"On average, GM technology adoption has reduced chemical pesticide use by 37%, increased crop yields by 22%, and increased farmer profits by 68%. Yield gains and pesticide reductions are larger for insect-resistant crops than for herbicide-tolerant crops. Yield and profit gains are higher in developing countries than in developed countries."

@Surasanji @js290 @freemo

Thanks, I know what orthogonal means, I just don't understand it in the context.

I'd say couple of things here though. As always, I may be wrong, forgive me in that case, not looking for a fight and I am quite tired =D

This study is comparing, as I understand, the same crops with and without GMOs. Now, that is leading to a false double road, as we have many methods of cultivation. I have yet to see a comparison between an holistic managed grazing farm with silvopasture and a GMO corn crop. That I think would say far more.

The soil degradation is not taken into account, because in that case a few harvests won't do, you'll have to project it into 30, 50 years and see how much carbon you are going to need to produce the fertilizer, for new resistant weeds and how much more water, since the soil will likely be unable to keep it properly.

Nature is pretty, pretty complex. I wouldn't trust a statistical model that affirms it can predict with satisfying accuracy what happens when something so new as a GMO is injected in an ecosystem... let's be humble about this, we are still trying to understand the basics of how everything works.

@arteteco @js290 @freemo I do not know, for certain, the very long term effects of GMOs- but we are 25 years in now, and these studies are hitting that point.

Is there a better way? Yeah, probably. Is it viable to feed the population? Maybe.

I'm pretty in the school of GMOs are mostly good.

@surasanji @freemo @arteteco  "Every culture that has depended on annual plants for their staple food crops has collapsed." http://bit.ly/1ck0tnM

@js290 @freemo @arteteco Eh. I'd take what that guy says with a grain of salt. He's selling a book- and a product.

@surasanji @freemo @arteteco and you're not selling GMOs?

@js290 @freemo @arteteco Nope. I make no money from GMOs.

@surasanji @freemo @arteteco so you freely advocate for GMOs... sounds like something a useful idiot would do...

@js290 @freemo @arteteco This is part of a larger conversation between people who like discussions. Insults are not appreciated or required.

@surasanji @freemo @arteteco  How long has humanity been around? How long has agriculture been around? How long has synthetic inputs & GMO been around? 25 years & you're ready to claim GMO success?

@js290 @freemo @arteteco Considering that it is , I feel, a natural evolution to the domestication process that we have done with plants already, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

@surasanji @freemo @arteteco  Transition from HG to agriculture... human domestication... http://bit.ly/1wiHQqE

@Surasanji Gonna have to agree with you here. While I respect his opinion, I do not respect resorting to insults to express it.

@js290 @arteteco

@surasanji @freemo @arteteco  "The Middle East today is what annual ag does."  http://bit.ly/1K3otw2

@arteteco the equations are derivatives. FODE implies that the derrivative contains the original function. In this case the derivative of x1 on the left and x1 on the right. The notation he chose is a bit confusing though.

A good real world example where that would occur would be a tall tower or bucket with water draining with a hole at the bottom. The volumn of water can be represented as V, the rate of change of the volumn of water (its derivative) would be V', which represents the rate at which water is draining from the bucket.

Because of the weight of the water the more water there is the faster it drains. So the value of V' depends on the value of V. Thus it would be represented by a FODE.

@js290 @Surasanji

@freemo
Thank you, now is way more clear! :)

@js290 @Surasanji

@arteteco @freemo @js290 Yes, that is a lot clearer when it comes to the math.

@js290 @freemo @Surasanji I agree on the soil part, that is my main personal interest, but I think my training in math is too low to understand you...

I appreciate that you have taken to the time to explain your opinion to me nonetheless, it's clearly something you thought a lot about =)

@arteteco @freemo @surasanji  It was 20 years ago in grad school when the best engineer I studied with said, "coupled systems cannot be magically decoupled." It's only been within the last 5 years that I finally understood fundamentally what that meant. He also said "We don't study enough math" which is when I knew I was not going to survive a PhD program.

Understanding and observing the soil is the root/radical solution. Our health is coupled to the health of the Earth/soil. GMO is technological salvation, a faith based proposition.