@freemo According to https://qoto.org/about/more says #hate_speech is against laws and one would be banned because of it.
Does this mean that a #Muslim expressing their religious belief about man-to-man intercourse is a hate speech? According to #Quran this is a shameful deed and according to #hadith there is death penalty for both parties having such an intercourse.
@farooqkz @freemo
What is your real purpose in asking this question?
Surely you don’t need to ask if advocating killing people is hate speech.
A more interesting question is whether this is hate speech against Muslims.
Consider this view is far from universal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam
Consider that Leviticus 20:13, in at least the King James translation, calls for the same thing.
I can’t speak to the Jewish view here, but Christians view the Old Testament to have been supplanted by a less-harsh message of the New Testament.
(Before making assumptions about the Jewish view of Leviticus, keep in mind that the King James translation contains 2 references to unicorns—down from Tyndale’s 4).
Are you trying to incite hatred of Muslims from the LGBTQ community?
I don’t think that’s your intent, but I do think you need to reflect on why you would present the #Muslim religion as a threat.
Is defaming a religion a ban-worthy act? I don’t know. I’m new here.
But I don’t approve of it.
There are many acts which are considered a crime(a sin which has a punishment) in my religion and the punishment of many of these crimes is death.
Regarding "Advocating killing people", this is too general. In my religion I'm must kill someone who is aware and is trying to kill me and that I don't have any other way of defending myself(e.g. in a war).
Also the punishment for intentional murder is also death. And so is punishment for two who had a man-to-man sexual intercourse. Given that these hadiths are "correct". Under which conditions? I don't know.
Now if I narrate such a hadith and tell the others that it's correct and that's my belief, is this considered a hate speech?
The reason I'm asking about this, is my future actions. As I am a user of this instance, I must know its rules well so that I won't post something which is against the rules.
The reason this discussion is public is that it might benefit the others as well.
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@freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @Pat@qoto.org @BobKerns@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org The problem is hate speech can mean anything from obviously extreme advocations of murder on one end or just being logical on another, and this "logic" is invariably discriminatory on a technical level.
Hate speech is subjective to a degree. If I claim it is illogical for transwomen to compete in women's sports since the gender segregation is based on physicality, is that hate speech?
Extreme advocations of murder is hate speech... logical things arent.
Lets stick to examples that arent easily classified if we want to make that point, I agree, there are some areas that might need debate... but most of the time its pretty cut and dry, I rarely see subtle people on the internet :)
@Vivernu @Pat @freemo @farooqkz @tonic
1) What is the purpose of school sports?
2) The physicality to which you allude is based on hormonal differences. If we’re talking about high school sports, it’s puberty blockers we’re talking about.
This would put trans women at a disadvantage.
So to your question: what is the context? Are you attacking a trans athlete? Are you seeking to impose your opinion?
Do you seek to exclude trans athletes from high school sports? If so, do you believe that high school sports should be about finding who is most physically capable?
If so, does that even support your argument? (Personally, I reject that role for high school sports, but any trace of unfairness in who wins pales in comparison to the unfairness of not even being allowed to compete.)
Have you even met a trans woman?
But here’s a formula for you. Ask—does this speech do harm? To a group? To individuals?
Is the purpose of the group, or the actions of the individual, to do harm to others?
These questions should help you work out an answer.
I just post here. I can’t interpret the rules for you, especially out of context.
@BobKerns@qoto.org @Vivernu@springbo.cc @Pat@qoto.org @freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org I'm not just talking about "school sports". Firstly, this is just an example of something that can be debated in good faith but some extremists would consider "hate speech".
Seccondly no transwomen, even after hormones, aren't the "average" physicality of women. They average somewhere in-between women and men.
The point is the segregation of men and women's sports is done due to physicality primarily. At best an argument to integrate transwomen into women's sports (where transwomen have a large advantage) is an argument to integrate men & women's sports in general.
@Vivernu @Pat @freemo @farooqkz @tonic
In the context of school sports, fatigue is a side effect of puberty blockers, but if we’re talking college or pro, you have to take hormone withdrawal into account. In addition to fatigue, withdrawing from T you lose that extra muscle mass.
I don’t feel like a good faith discussion is possible without a clear understanding of the purpose of the competition and a clear understanding of the impact of trans people’s participation.
Arguing broadly on the basis of hypotheticals just serves the transphobic agenda. I’m not accusing you of having a transphobic agenda yourself.
But fear that trans women might participate in girls sports, in the abstract, is clearly trans phobia (deliberately two words).
Discussing it on the basis of what might happen, divorced from all context, pushes for broad trans exclusion where it’s not needed, and where perhaps separate boy/girl sports aren’t needed at all.
And the emphasis on who wins needs some reexamination as well. Children’s sports where parents come to blows…
A large part of the furor over this topic, to the extent it’s not pure transphobia, is a symptom of this unhealthy obsession with winning.
Anything that’s left over might be worthy of a serious discussion.
@BobKerns@qoto.org @Vivernu@springbo.cc @Pat@qoto.org @freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org All I'm saying is this:
Physically, men are on average stronger and more athletically capable than women, This is a fact, and this is the reason men & women's sports are segregated by sex, to not be unfair to women.
Transwomen do become a bit more physically like women after they go through HRT, but they're somewhere in-between the physicality of men and women—perhaps closer to men still, even, at least where average athleticism and definitely bone structure is relevant. It's complicated, sure, but in a sense it's still unfair to women to allow them to compete in women's sports. I've seen no evidence after full treatment that transwomen average the female average in overall physicality.
Furthermore, even if it is true, or one believes, that after full treatment transwomen average women physically, I recall seeing an interview where some famous transwoman who is controversial was advocating waiting until full HRT treatment before letting transwomen in women's sports, and tons of people were claiming she was transphobic or something for "gatekeeping" like that, which implies even then plenty of activists don't care about logic at all.
I think it's possible to change how sports are segregated to accommodate this, maybe? But the fact is, all rational attempts at an argument for the inclusion of transwomen in women's sports are arguments for the sex desegregation of sports in general, and perhaps attempting to compensate with weight classes, which even then may not be able to accommodate all the nuanced differences between men & women's bodies.
@BobKerns@qoto.org @Vivernu@springbo.cc @Pat@qoto.org @freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org And btw, I have plenty of trans friends, all transwomen. At least one agrees with me on this issue.
@farooqkz
>"I have a personal or religious belief which is considered hate-speech. Is it okay to express that?"
No, that's not okay. Talk about something else and be nice.
@BobKerns @freemo @tonic