@zpartacoos

The only program availible to most of them is the 12 step program which effectively requires them to be deeply religious. ITs a sick scheme to take advantage of people in a vulnerable state.

@funny

@freemo @zpartacoos @funny I'm honestly struggling to see how these programs are taking advantage of people in some fundamental way by introducing them to a religious perspective as a means of reducing recidivism.

I would make the case that most people who become addicted to drugs lack a sense of purpose and meaning in life, and a way to appropriately deal with the tragedies of their lives that were thrust upon them. Notably, one woman said that she did heroin because it "felt like a warm hug".

At the very least, even if you are an atheist and think religion is ridiculous, you have to admit these hurting people are being directly connected to a perceived transcendent source of meaning that allows them to properly contextualize their trauma as something that can be used for good, rather than the injustice of an arbitrary, uncaring universe. Most people tend to respond better to the idea that their suffering has a greater purpose, as compared to the alternative.

Even better, these programs tend to work for the people who join them([source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3753023/)), and the Christian worldview aids in allowing adherents to forgive themselves and others, as they have a mechanism of redemption of their past faults and the associated guilt.

Obviously, there are ways that this can be taken too far, or shady individuals may take advantage of the vulnerability of the system. But I think that can be said for most institutional hierarchies, not just the subset of them which are religious in some way (just look at Larry Nassar for example).

Thoughts?

@johnabs @freemo @zpartacoos @funny
As someone who has intimate experience with AlcoholicsAnonymous since before I could understand what I was seeing(before I could even walk), I can honestly say that this is all partially true.

To say its explicity religious would be a misstep- as it actually repeatedly asks members to 'surrender to a "higher power" ' which is never specifically detailed or characterized in the same fashion as orthodox religion. That being said, it does however- bring up 'god' more as a passive literary tool to convey a message. This is last bit imo is in steep contrast to its usage in whatever judaic/christian testament you might skim through.

Honestly though, most people are likely to read 'god' in non-religious documents as the same 'god' referred to in christian scriptures that is predominant is most media.

@lucifargundam @freemo @zpartacoos @funny Thank you for the input! I was unaware that many of these programs use a more pseudo-religious shift, rather than a preexisting world religion to base their sessions on. I would imagine more concrete teachings and applications would be more useful than this seemingly "new-age" interpretation (i.e. a more "pick a lane" approach).

To clarify, which part is in steep contrast? "Using 'god' to convey a message?" I kind of lost what you getting at in the last two sentences of your post.

@johnabs @freemo @zpartacoos @funny

Programs like AA are heavy on the idea of talking about your problems that trigger you relapsing towards addiction. In addition to that, they ask that you try to 'let go' of the negative thoughts and feelings that lead one to resort to substance abuse. Trusting in the idea that your actions and burdens are subjective- that that of which exists outside of yourself has led you to where you are. Having faith in inevitable future good will give you strength to move foward with sobriety.

An example:
(Prayer of Serenity)
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Another example:
Shoemaker wrote about the necessity of making daily surren-ders.Yes, the Sixth Step is also about surrendering, just like theThird. But Shoemaker made one point very clear: We surrenderas much of ourselves to as much of God as we understand.Inother words, our spiritual progress is based in direct proportion toour dropping the rock. We are very fortunate that all of our de-fects aren’t revealed to us all at once. Recovery works by givingus daily insight into what we can do to remove what blocks us.We need a daily awareness that our character defects are the op-posite of the principles of our Program.

Here's a link to some speeches:
https://www.rehab4addiction.co.uk/resources/best-aa-speeches-all-time

@johnabs

Because they are using their vulnerable state to induct them into what is effectively a cult (religion). That cult demands financial contributions and even encourages one donate time and effort to recruiting others.

@zpartacoos @funny @lucifargundam

@freemo @zpartacoos @funny @lucifargundam Do you think all religions are cults? I think there's a pretty substantial difference. Primarily, adherents to a religion try to act in truth and what they believe is in the best interest of others. Cults, particularly cult leaders, are predatory and are almost always obviously lying.

Also, all the places I've been to church have never demanded anything, only asked politely for financial or other forms of assistance. They taught that "God knows your finances" and wouldn't want you to donate uncomfortably, but rather cheerfully.

And of course religions want new members, though this isn't for MLM style reasons. They believe many people are missing out on purpose, and are suffering horribly for it. Even worse, if they're correct, people need to know God to experience fullness in life and some manner of salvation in death. Failure to reach out to others (especially the weak and needy) is one of the least loving things you can do from a religious perspective, as you may have been the only person capable of opening their eyes to the truth and helping them turn their life around.

Once you consider the effectiveness of these sorts of 12 step programs and the other positive mental, emotional, and spiritual effects religious people experience, I think it's an unfair characterization to refer to all, or even most, as harmful or cults.

@johnabs

No only organized religions are cults. Once it becomes an organized religion with an authority then it is a cult. Organized religions are generally predatory even if those acting in such a way think they are doing good.

@zpartacoos @funny @lucifargundam

@johnabs

By the way, its been years since I did the research and dont still have it on hand. But at the time the numbers showed that the 12 step program is actually **less** effective than doing nothing (they have a worse recovery rate than the untreated drug addicts). Moreover psychiatric treatment is the most effective treatment.

So yes, I did consider the effectiveness of these programs in my hatred towards them.

@zpartacoos @funny @lucifargundam

@johnabs

Did a quick search and the results seem to be the same as before, that the 12 step program performs about as well as no treatment at all. Image attached.

@zpartacoos @funny @lucifargundam