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The thing about vaccines are, even if they dont work (and they probably dont at this point with delta) that the risk from them is so extraordinarily low that there is no reason not to get them.
You are at more risk of harm on your drive to the vaccine location than you actually are by getting the vaccine.
total worldwide death toll to date from the vaccine.... 5 people... 5 people out of over 400 million doses. I think the vaccine is useless but I still got vaccinated simply because there is no good argument not to.
@icedquinn your criticisms about how the safety was skipped to roll it out and how now it is harder to do proper control groups in a closed setting is valid.
But while the numbers are less than ideal at this point they are more than sufficient to show the vaccines safety IMO. Not ideal, but sufficient.
@freemo you think the vaccine is useless?
@skells Based on most recent data, yes. If you had asked me a few weeks ago I would have said no.
@freemo with this logic it wouldn't take much uncertainty in risk to justify not taking the vaccine, via negativa
@skells Dont you need to also add in the uncertainty in my claim that the vaccine is useless then?
@freemo true, which leaves us at a wash.
interventions with high uncertainty add noise
@skells the claim here is not that ther eis high uncertainty but relatively low uncertainty.
The certainty that vaccines are safe is relatively high, and its safety is extraordinary high as well (5 deaths out of 400+ million doses)
The certainty that the vaccine is useless is moderate. the evidence is fairly suggestive that it is useless right now against delta, but its highly preliminary and stands a good chance of changing. so the certainty on this side is middling at best.
So from these two factors one would conclude the overwhelmingly obvious choice is to get the vaccine.
@freemo what evidence do you have for long term safety of the vaccine?
@skells The same evidence we have for all vaccines that over time have proven to be true. Over a year of data on 400+ million doses without the slightest hint of anything suspicious. As we know from vaccines in the past, and drug testing in general, this results in extremely high confidence in its safety into the future.
@freemo @skells dead men tell no lies... https://www.habingfamily.com/obituary/michael-mike-granata
A man who didnt die of COVID happened to get a COVID shot before dying... how is that important?
When there are 400 million shots delivered one **Expects** a good number of people who were going to die of unrelated causes to have recently been vaccinated. To conclude that one, two, or a hundred cases that fit that pattern infers that COVID vaccine was the cause is just completely uneducated. Thats not how any objective person assesses risk.
@freemo @skells "Risk isn't just about the probabilities, it's also about the consequences..." https://youtu.be/YjvRRy-rm6E?t=1000
Where is the study he did where he ruled out the cause being a COVID infection or where he shows that the athletes were all recently vaccinated.
Do you really believe such poorly presented evidence with literally no rigor or investigation? Shocker, but during a pandemic more people die than usual, to assume its a vaccine with no data or investigation of any kind is completely idiotic.
Many of these cases also sound like textbook Post-acute COVID-19 syndrome... again with some moron just saying "hey look i have a random list of people who fainted" doesnt go far to make a case of anything other than he doesnt know the first thing as to how to actually test a theory and prove he might be right.
Uh huh... an actual condition proven time and time again in various replicated and peer-reviewed studies sounds "made up"... but a random list with no scientific rigor or investigation of some random people who happened to faint, absolutely must be because of COVID vaccine.
You might want to work a bit on your formal logic skills there buddy.
@freemo
1) There is plenty of evidence that vaccines are doing harm. We can disagree on the interpretation of that evidence but there is plenty to be concerned about.
2) The mechanisms which cause long term damage don't necessarily show up in the short term. It took decades for the results of radiation to play out in nuclear researchers.
1) no there isnt, unless you define evidence as "stupid shit people make up". Chances are you call things evidence that doesnt remotely resemble evidence.
2) radiation is something completely new. vaccines are not new, and the RNA approach to vaccines are not your only option (there are classical vaccines). So no this is false, classical vaccines have been around for decades and we know well the risk. Yes there is some very small chance something novel could arrise. But we have done this so many times with so many vaccines and never had a problem the chance is vanishingly slim
@freemo it's very easy to hold your position when those who disagree with your are defined as stupid
I won't argue about this with you.
@skells incidentally it is also easy for me to hold my position when the people disagreeing with me are literally and actually stupid. Generally stupid people do a poor job at making a compelling case.
To be fair it is the published science that told me the vaccine isnt effective in the first place
I was thinking cholera :) For IBS just smoke some pot, apparently it does wonders.
@freemo @AmpBenzScientist https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635
institutions are starting to catch up
They arent "starting to catch up", this is hardly anything new. The data has always been too preliminary to make strong assertions and we simply use our best reasoning as it evolves.
Contrast this with anti-vaxers and anti-science people who just make up random shit and anything that is anti-vax and wind up looking a fool and being wrong about virtually everything they say over time.
@Bajax Didnt cost me a penny to get vaxed and I dont even have health insurance right now.
@Bajax thats fair, but they are paid with grants prior to making the drugs. They get paid the same even if a large portion of the vaccine sits unused. So you arent contributing to them making money by being vaxed you are simply ensuring the drugs dont go to waste.
@Bajax As you wish, that is your right of course. At least for now (maybe not much longer aand that would be sad)
@freemo even if it's useless against the delta variant, that's still not the same as being useless. The non delta is still going around and likely the reason we're seeing much much higher amounts of delta vs the original is because so many people are vaccinated.
i.e.
>subjecting virus to artificial evolutionary pressures after half-hearted, counterproductive efforts to wipe it out
I uh... just realized I son't want to talk about this. Basically everyone is too stupid to function in the modern age.
@Bajax ah shit, you may have a point there, not much we can do about it now though. And by we I mean you and I.
@freemo I never received the vaccine after I was warned by my pharmacist and doctor to not get it. I contracted Covid-19 twice and was scheduled to take Pfizer two weeks after the second infection. I am control group if government doesn't try to vaccinate the inoculated. 15 months between infections is pretty good.
@AmpBenzScientist A control group, depending on what they are tested, would have to never have contracted the virus.
@freemo (Correct)
No vaccine and two strains of Covid would be interesting. Will my kids be lizard people? Will the vaccine make super soldiers? Crazy spreads faster than a virus.
@AmpBenzScientist know a person who had covid three times and is vaccinated.
Even if you have fire protective clothing and you play with fire, there is a chance that you will get burnt...
@barefootstache I pour gasoline on fires and get burned by a cigarette in a bar.
Well since they are here to tell the story, I'm guessing that means zero.
Currently there are lots of people in various countries where you can pay them to take the vaccine for you. They have had crazy amounts of the vaccine like 30+ doses. Other than they being fine with prison, they are quite interesting case studies.
Just tell people you got vaccinated in Egypt when you were staying there. There is no record to verify you were vaccinated and it would be dangerous for you to get double vaccinated just to get a card.
@freemo @barefootstache I've had it twice and I'm angry that it didn't live up to expectations.
> company can't even be bothered to do the whole 3 year trial without breaching the control group