@VoxDei "The right to bear arms shall not be infringed"... very clearly denying a gun to people without any reason is infringing on ones right to bear arms.

Has nothing to do with if your a gun nut or not, has more to do with if your honest about what the law very clearly says.

@freemo A license requiring you know what you're doing and know how to be responsible in no way infringes on the right to bear arms.

@VoxDei Yes, it does. It creates a complex scheme governed by an indifferent at best / adversarial at worst bureaucracy that prevents prospective victims from acquiring a firearm to protect themselves in time-sensitive situations. There exists no shortage of cases in which this has happened.

Do I share your sentiment that everyone who owns a firearm ought to be trained and experienced? Oh, most assuredly. Everyone in the 2A crowd would ardently agree with you. We merely don't believe it should be used as a mechanism to dissuade one from acquiring or deny someone a firearm they need immediately.

@freemo

@ihavenopeopleskills @freemo I would take issue with the idea that anyone (certainly any significant number of people, there may be edge cases) genuinely needs a gun immediately for legitimate purposes. Even more so if you exclude reasons that aren't caused by the wide availability of firearms in the first place - I'm much less likely to feel I need one to protect myself if the likely threat doesn't have one. Moreover the 2a protects the right to bear arms, not to be able to obtain one instantly.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

> I would take issue with the idea that anyone (certainly any significant number of people, there may be edge cases) genuinely needs a gun immediately for legitimate purposes.

Once you put enough adjectives in front of something anything becomes a minority of the whole...

* genuine
* need
* immediate
*legitimate
* purpose

I mean sure ... lots of people have some combination of those 5 properties and not all 5 at once. The point? Someone with legitimate purpose, but it may not be immediate shouldnt have a gun because their need is "some unknown point in the future"?

> Even more so if you exclude reasons that aren't caused by the wide availability of firearms in the first place

That is a fallacy of statistical understanding, but lets not get off into that tangent....

> I'm much less likely to feel I need one to protect myself if the likely threat doesn't have one.

Not really, we have 3d printers that can make guns now, including fully automatic... One guy on youtube made a fully automatic gun in a few minutes by swleding together random parts from a bed frame.

Guns are trivial to obtain out of thin air, the idea that you think the other guy wont have a gun simply because you told him he couldnt doesnt track with the reality we are in, maybe 30 years ago, not now.

> Moreover the 2a protects the right to bear arms, not to be able to obtain one instantly.

No it doesnt simply "protect the right to bear arms".. it makes all infringement against ones ability to bear arms illegal. If you are denying me my right to bear arms in the hear and now, and dont even promise me the right in a few days, that is most certainly within the definition of an infringement.

@freemo @ihavenopeopleskills

Yeah, but the argument made was that a license prevents someone who needs a gun immediately from getting one. My point is why would you need a gun immediately? There might be one or two edge cases, but I suspect they'll be very small numbers of occurrences. I would say preventing people from getting guns immediately is a net *good* thing - it'll prevent a lot of suicides, for a start, way more than lives it'll ever save because someone could obtain a gun on an hour's notice.

Guns are *not* trivial to obtain out of thin air. 3D-printed guns are not common. I live in the UK, we have strong gun laws, you don't find that people have a secret 3D-printed gun hidden in a cupboard just in case they need to shoot someone. Yes, fine, hardened criminals might have one, but that's the case now - if you're determined to get an illegal weapon, you can, it doesn't make them widespread and it doesn't mean that Joe Average needs a gun and needs one right now (but with a long enough delay to nip down to the shops and come back with a gun).

I'm not denying you your "right" to bear arms (scare quotes because I don't understand why anywhere bestows that right in the first place, and the 2a explicitly says that it's related to the requirement for a "well-regulated militia", which is never considered in the legal arguments). But none of the constitutional rights is absolute. The first amendment, for instance, does not allow you to say anything to anyone at any time. If I go around saying "person X is a rapist" for example, if I can't prove it I get sued for slander, I can't say "Oh but the first amendment, I can say what I want whether it's true or not". Imposing a requirement on gun ownership to prove that you have some basic competence via a licensing scheme does not infringe your rights. Moreover, the 2fa bestows a "right to keep and bear arms", not to walk around with assault weapons - it would be within the meaning of the 2fa if the government said "You can have this one type of gun" - you would have a right to keep arms and to bear them. I realise that American jurisprudence, especially from the point of view of the current Supreme Court that barely pays lip service to the actual law, disagrees with that, but that doesn't change what I think the law actually says.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

> Yeah, but the argument made was that a license prevents someone who needs a gun immediately from getting one. My point is why would you need a gun immediately? There might be one or two edge cases, but I suspect they’ll be very small numbers of occurrences. I

I dunno, I know you well enough to know your arguing in good faith, but if I didnt know that I would think this was intentionally dishonest.

For starters, no, the only argument against licening is not an immediate need. Generally the argument against it is five fold:

1) the 2A is very clear that all infringement against gun ownership is illegal (thought he supreme court has ruled in ways contrary to this text in the past). If you want to place reasonable infringements on gun ownership, thats fine, but get it added as a constitutional ammendment then as the law would require

2) Licensing means some way is needed to verify the license in real time against a database. This means any licensing would act indirectly as a gun registry and would open up the potential for gun owners to be targeted and abused and ultimately disarmed in unjust ways or make rising up against the government a virtual impossibility as everyone is pre-identified.

3) Licensing can be abused to deny people access to guns unfairly. In an ideal system the training is obtainable by everyone who puts in the time. But in reality licensing can be denied, and the fear is potentially for unjust reasons.

4) It divides access to a right by class... While guns themselves can be very cheap, and even made at home practically for free, licensing may be arbitrary expensive and prohibitive. This will push access to this right further towards the rich and block it from the poor.. Rights should be availible to all.. We could fix this by making all licensing paid for by public programs... but no one would allow that.

5) And of course the point you point out which is also very much a valid point... if your life is in immediate danger you may need a gun now.

Now as to how much of an edge case the immediate need is.. I mean I dont care if its 1%, these people need them to save their lives.. but its likely a lot higher than you think... Most people who buy them recently had someone threaten to kill or rape them, and that happens quite often... I have been pro-gun my whole life, never bothered to buy one till the mob said they would kill me... The two girls I know who carry, the only two, carry specifically because they broke up with an abusive BF who threatened to hurt and rape them... These arent edge cases, they are quite common I am sure (though I couldnt find actual numbers on it).

> Guns are not trivial to obtain out of thin air. 3D-printed guns are not common. I live in the UK, we have strong gun laws, you don’t find that people have a secret 3D-printed gun hidden in a cupboard just in case they need to shoot someone. Yes, fine, hardened criminals might have one, but that’s the case now - if you’re determined to get an illegal weapon, you can, it doesn’t make them widespread and it doesn’t mean that Joe Average needs a gun and needs one right now (but with a long enough delay to nip down to the shops and come back with a gun).

How is it not trivial when any 3d printer off a shelf can print on in a short period of time and then I have a gun... It is trivial. The fact that people dont bother to print them in the UK may be true, but that isnt due to it not being trivial, its still trivial, people just may not choose to.

> I’m not denying you your “right” to bear arms (scare quotes because I don’t understand why anywhere bestows that right in the first place, and the 2a explicitly says that it’s related to the requirement for a “well-regulated militia”, which is never considered in the legal arguments)

No it does nothing of the sort, and this is quite obvious to anyone reading the text in a way that is honest and objective. Furthermore the forefathers who authored the line themselves you are misrepresented have very clearly clarified that it doesnt mean what you are saying it means... Lets look at that.

First here is the exact text:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The part about a well regulated militia is called a exemplary clause, it is not a qualifying clause.. in other words its meant to give an example of one reason why the right is so important, not intended as a limitation.

First this is just obvious on the surface.. You can test this and get it past your biases by using a less controversial topic but of the same format. Take the following phhase

"An effective congress, being neccessary to the security of a free state, the right to democratic vote shall not be infringed"

Would this imply only congress gets to vote? Or that voting is only protected when voting from congress members? Of course not. Anyone reading that (or the original) can clearly see that they are explaining one reason the right is needed, and not saying the right is only exercised in that scope.

Now even if you do argue, as I said the authors of the 2A themselves have very clearly stated that it applied to **all** people and not just an organized militia, so all doubt is completely removed regarding the argument your making:

I have made posts on this where I listed like a dozen quotes from the founding fathers proving this.. I will leave the most direct here, there are more if you need it:

“I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.” — Founding Father, George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment.

> The first amendment, for instance, does not allow you to say anything to anyone at any time. If I go around saying “person X is a rapist” for example, if I can’t prove it I get sued for slander, I can’t say “Oh but the first amendment, I can say what I want whether it’s true or not”.

No you can say or do anything.. it is just if what you say or do causes harm then you have to pay for it.

Your analogy applied to guns would only work if gun owners were claiming the #2A gave them a right to go around killing people because if they cant kill people it would infringe ont heir right to own a gun... no, killing people can be illegal even if ownign a gun is legal...

Similarly I can say whatever I want... Simply speaking is never illegal in and of itself.. However if that speech harms someone then yes, that harm can potentially be illegal. Just as no one can stop me from owning a gun, but how I use that gun, if it causes harm, can be illegal.

@freemo @ihavenopeopleskills

This debate is getting longer than I wanted it to, in the sense that we're both writing a lot, and I don't want to offend anyway. I think perhaps I was unclear about some of what I meant, and I don't want to argue about technicalities - we end up with enormous posts that don't really get us anywhere. So I'm going to stop, I wish we could have this discussion over a beer some time, it feels like it'd be much more productive in person! I appreciate that you say you know I'm arguing in good faith, because I definitely am, so thank you. :-)

@VoxDei

Sure nop problem with disengaging... sadly its a topic that has a lot of comment and cant be reduced to simplicities... a beer is always welcome and open to you anytime you want to get one.

@ihavenopeopleskills

@VoxDei

> If I go around saying “person X is a rapist” for example, if I can’t prove it I get sued for slander, I can’t say “Oh but the first amendment, I can say what I want whether it’s true or not”.

Oh and this needs a little more because every statement there is wrong.

You are talking about slander, and simply not being able to prove something you say about someone else is **not** slander... because slander deals witht he consequence of certain speech. The speech is protected but you arent protected from its consequences.

Therefore the criteria for slander is:

* It must actually cause harm to the person"
* The harm must be intentional and not accidental
* The person must have soemthing to gain
* The person must have stated a defamatory statement against the person that they **knew** was a lie when they stated it.

Notice these criteria deal with intent, harm, and manipulation. The fact that someone used free speech to carry out something illegal doesnt mean there are limits on free speech, only that you may be responsible for the damages caused by that speech if those damages are intentional and self serving.

@ihavenopeopleskills

@freemo I have no time to read all the toots, but IMHO, for certain themes like guns, illegal drugs, alcoholics, prostitution, etc... one should compare the effects of different rules in different nations, for deciding the best approach.

For example if gun regulamentation is effective in reducing a lot the crimes, then it can be a good thing, despite there can be cases of person affected in negative by this limitation.

If buying drugs in a regular way reduce the profit of criminal cartels and the health impact on society, why not?

etc...

Summing up: a nation should do the contrary of USA: public health-care system; legal drugs; prohibition of guns. 🙂

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

Agreed, but you have to be careful to do it right.

For example this mentality is exactly what lead to my stance on gun-rights. The fact that virtually every state and nation, when banning guns, saw a **huge** spike in homicides and/or violent crimes in the 5 - 10 years following before those numbers sometimes go down but almost never reach pre-ban levels or below again... that pattern clearly shows that other nations banning guns has had a very harmful effect.

Obviously we can take one step further and also look at wars and falls of nations... in virtually every case a nation with a dictator was limited to countries where people were unarmed either in the past, or during the rise of the dictator.

Hitler is often cited as an example of this, there was a massive disarmenment of Europe in most countries (including germany) following WWI and surprise surprise, after the decade or so it took to get rid of guns Hitler pops up almost immediately.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

> Summing up: a nation should do the contrary of USA: public health-care system; legal drugs; prohibition of guns. 🙂

While I'd agree with you on legal drugs, the other two sorta..

I wouldnt replicate the USA's healthcare system, it is a broken disaster... But then again so is every European system just in a very different way. So I agree, dont do anything that copies the american system, but also for the love of god, dont copy the european one either... clearly we need something that works and no one has one.

As for prohibition of guns, seeing as america is the only place that didnt witness the death of tens to hundreds to thousands of thousands of people as a direct result of gun prohibition, yea this is false, maybe america is exactly who you should be replicating... not only did we not have the massive deaths, but we also have yet to have a Hitler, something we claimed long before Hitler would be the result... and we were right.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@freemo

They told me that Canada has a lot less murders by gun respect USA, because they have also more controls on the license.

Excerpt from this link:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/06/americas/canada-deadly-gun-violence/index.html

> For a decade, there were about five murders per year in Canada with three or more victims, according to the country’s national statistics agency.

> For one, Canadian law requires citizens to undergo robust background checks and mandatory training before obtaining a gun license.

> Reasons for license denials or revocations have included mental health concerns, potentially being a threat to oneself or others, court orders, and lying on license applications.

Is this article wrong? Apparently the only logical conclusion is that the Canada way is better than the USA way. Were am I wrong?

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

> They told me that Canada has a lot less murders by gun respect USA, because they have also more controls on the license.

As a professional statistician I can tell you you just got into the territory of "bad science" using objectively bad analysis that would be rejected immediately by any math-literate (statistics) scientist for good reason.

We are trying to show causation, to do that you need to show a cause being **followed** by an event... you cant compare two countries that have hundreds of millions of influencing factors and say "look this country has less crime and no guns its related!" no, thats just no better than a lie, a well intentioned one, but a lie... There are far far too many factors for you to even suspect or hint at any one cause.

In fact even if you could directly establish correlation this does nothing to address post hox ergo procter hoc fallacy... which is the cause and which is the effect... Does high crime rate cause people to want to legalize guns, or does legalizing guns cause high criem rate.. if the correlation is valid either direction of causation would likewise be valid, so you still did absolutely nothing to even **hint** at a causation here.

This is why i choose my wording carefully. What we do see, and what does actually tell us causation, is that when guns are banned (the cause) in the 5 - 10 years that **follow** (the effect) homicide and violent act rates sky rocket through the roof in almost all cases. They also almost never recover to below pre-ban rates... at best they settle slightly above pre-ban rates, at worse they remain quite higher.

> Is this article wrong? Apparently the only logical conclusion is that the Canada way is better than the USA way. Were am I wrong?

The specific facts of the article may be right.. but as per above this isnt even **suggestive** of a cause-effect relationship between guns and deaths.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

In fact you only have to look at the numbers.... Significant hand gun bans in canada were enacted in 1966 with bill C-150 .. these banned many types of guns and got quite a few guns, particularly hand guns used in self defense, off the streets.

What was the result to homicide rate? well lets look at a chart...

Well look at that, the homicide rate goes through the roof, doubling for about a decade (just as i suggest)... and while it does start to decrease eventually it never falls below pre-ban levels... meaning a lot of peopel died over very very many decades due to this policy.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@freemo ok interesting: the homicide levels increased.

But in this chart

https://sites.nationalacademies.org/cs/groups/dbassesite/documents/webpage/dbasse_083892.pdf also

USA had a massive spike in homicides rates. More than Canada. And the USA not banned guns.

Maybe you are correct, but I had to study a lot of stats, before being sure.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

> sites.nationalacademies.org/cs/groups/dbassesite/documents/webpage/dbasse_083892.pdf also
>
> USA had a massive spike in homicides rates. More than Canada. And the USA not banned guns.

uhhh what are you even arguing for here?

That would be like this conversation:

Scientist: "We see the death rate in every country increases once COVID-19 is introduced intot he country. Therefore we can conclude COVID-19 will increase the mortality rate of the country"

You: "But look, this one time in solenea we see the death rate increased and there were no COVID cases in the whole country... this makes your argument very suspicious, maybe COVID doesnt kill people"

The logic makes no sense... the fact that a pattern is born out and consistent is not invalidated simply because things other than guns can and have influenced these rates in the past... thats the very reason we look at multiple examples (and why i looked at every country in europe and around the world not just one)... its also why we use cause-effect tests and not correlation, to ensure we are limiting our scope to events related to guns and not other potential unrelated causes.

> Maybe you are correct, but I had to study a lot of stats, before being sure.

As well you should... But at least for the moment given the facts that have been presented in this thread, I think its clear my point is the one that is reasoned and fact based... that may change if you have new evidence, but clearly this evidence points to only one conclusion an objective person could make based on what we have said so far and argued.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@freemo

You said that in 1966, after the introduction of ban on guns in Canada, the homicide rate increased. And that it is the usual effect of these type of bans.

I noted that in Canada the rate were increasing from 1960, so prior to the ban of gun. It reached a peak on 1977.

1.28 homicide each 100k citizen in 1960; 1.41 in 1965; 3.0 in 1977.

Meanwhile in USA, from 4 of 1960 to 11 of 1977.

So one can derive, instead, that in these years the homicide rate increased both in USA and Canada, despite Canada introduced bans.

For sure, it seems that the ban of guns in Canada did not influenced the homicide rate. So my initial thesis is not so much convincing now. But your thesis about the increasing as consequence of the ban, is not completely validated, by these stats alone, because there were a similar increasing also in USA.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

> I noted that in Canada the rate were increasing from 1960, so prior to the ban of gun. It reached a peak on 1977.

Incorrect. See the attached chart which pulls the start date of the chart back a bit to 1960. You can clearly see the trend was wobbling with no clear up or down trend. It is only on the exact date of the bill we see the rates increasing sharply and noticeably.

In fact from 1960 to 1966 the homicide rate **decreased** slightly overall, not increased. Then in a single year after 1966 it increased by a HUGE margin.

> 1.28 homicide each 100k citizen in 1960; 1.41 in 1965; 3.0 in 1977.

We call this cherry picking, noticed the dates you picked were completely arbitrary (1960, 1965, 1977).. which has no relationship to the dates discussed.

Now take a look at the chart... you really going to tell me you dont see an abrupt rate change at 1967?

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@freemo

I took my data from "Statistics Canada"

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510006801&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=1961&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2022&referencePeriods=19610101%2C20220101

I saw them only in number, but if I use your chart view (that is compatible with the numbers of my link), I agree with this last your message. The spike is clear.

My analysis was wrong because I saw only the numbers, not the charts. My fault.

Remain the fact that also in USA in the same period there were a similar increase.

Maybe the law introduced in 1966 does not affect the already sold guns, but only the new guns.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

I know you try to argue in good faith, so that is a fair mistake to make.

> Remain the fact that also in USA in the same period there were a similar increase.

Yea... guess what, thats because a huge gun ban took place at the same date in the USA (something I just chcked and remembered, i had forgot before).

That date in the USA is the day that the definition of a "machine gun" was expanded and fully automatic guns were completely banned. It also banned **all** guns that dont have a "sprorting purpose" which caused many of our guns to be banned... Some of this was later repealed thankfully...

But yea you just proved my point, you went "wow look there is a huge spike here in the united states see it cant be due to gun bans".... and you literally are pointing at exactly the moment of the biggest gun ban in american history on a national level... QED, by accident, but QED

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan @freemo @VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills
> Guns are effectively banned in certain local govts in the US. (Although recent SCOTUS decisions have been reducing the extent of local restrictions.) It would be instructive to see where those US homicides occur (and being careful to exclude justified homicide, i.e. self defense). As a cherry picked example, Chicago is known for both gun control and homicides. An actual survey would be more instructive.

@customdesigned

There is absolutely no doubt a proper formal analysis would be better... Sadly this is one issue that has such strong biases you will find it will be very hard to do and just trust.. would require an individual who is an expert in Data Science to evaluate it as you cant expect peer review to succeed with such a strong bias on an issue at play... not to say we shouldnt do peer review, but good luck seeing sane results.

That said I have before shared the data regarding chicago in the past (it is attached here) and you do see a very similar spike... this pattern is just so obvious its hard to miss with any example.

@mzan @VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@freemo

as motivation of gun-ban, I remember having read in some place that the differences between homicide rate in USA and Canada nearby cities were very different, and in favor of Canada.

During this discussion I tried to compare Detroit and Toronto, but there were no big differences. Rather similar.

Then I found a comparison between a big USA city and a rather smaller Canadian city, and it is not fair comparing two different type of communities.

Your data is rather convincing, in the sense that now I have doubts. So one more reason for not believing the media, without double-checking.

For turning completely my mind, I need obviously to research more data, because stats can lie, also if taken in good faith. But initially, I believed that stats were completely in favor of the ban, but this does not seem the case anymore.

@customdesigned @VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@freemo Hitler was a "dictator" who reached the power through propaganda, not through the force of the guns. So this particular example is not sound, IMHO.

I have no access to the other statistics about the rise of homicides in case of ban of the guns. So if you have some link, I will read.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

So you are telling me his military didnt have guns, and those guns didnt stop unarmed jews from defending themselves?

Thats some significant rewriting of history you got going there. To think hitlers guns and everyone else he invaded not having guns played no role is bull...

You act like unarmed poland or unarmed civilians of other nations just voted him in...

Hell even when he got to power in germany he 1) used guns more than once 2) explicitly used guns to murder his opposition so as to fix the vote 3) used his access to guns to murder and frame someone in the reichstag fire.... yes his use of guns both allowed him to gain power, and to keep it.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

While we are at it,a nd just to show im not cherry picking... lets address the OP with regard to canada, two topics you both picked so I cant be the one cherry picking here...

So canada a long time ago banned a lot of types of guns, but you can still in some cases get a license if you have a strong need. So handguns still had some use as self defense among a privilaged class.... But they never required training to get a license... Training to obtain a firearm license was enacted by Canada and passed into law in 2014 as an additional restriction on getting a license and a gun. This of course limited access to guns or at least put a barrier in front of it reducing the number of guns on the street...

So what did this relatively minor restriction due to the violent crime rates... well yet again, a restriction on access to guns caused a **skyrocketing** of crime rates. See the chart attached.

As is clear despite violent crimes being well on the decline the day the training requirement law passed we see a huge and continued upward spike in violent crime rates. On that appears to be continuing to climb....

Seems even your example of Canada shows quite clearly banning guns kills people.

#2A

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@mzan

> I have no access to the other statistics about the rise of homicides in case of ban of the guns. So if you have some link, I will read.

Thats why i provided the data for you to see as a chart. The source is clearly listed for the data, you are welcome to go to the source and check it if you'd like.

@VoxDei @ihavenopeopleskills

@VoxDei @freemo In a lot of counties – I mean places that this ruling is directed at – this is not remotely an honest description of what was going on. You could be a world-class expert in firearm usage or whatever and not get a CCW in these places. And the problem was not hoops to jump through to prove your expertise: they just didn't issue.

@ech @VoxDei

Exactly... if someone bothered to create a license that made to to fix the other infringments it causes indiretly, then you very well could have, in theory, a license that wont infringe... sadly no one has even attempted to do so..

To do it you'd have to

1) make sure it is one-way only.. that is, impossible for anyone to check if you have gun based on name or SS#, or to see who has or doesnt have a gun in a particular area. You'd have to create system where the **only** way to check if someone is licensed is if the licensee **volunteers** their license number at which point a cop can only **confirm** they have a license and not search for licenses

2) It would have to be illegal for a cop to stop and ask you for your license simply because you display a firearm... otherwise that would be harassment and put people at risk.. much like with a license to carry a cop should only be able to ask for your license if you are under arrest and at reasonable suspicion of having commited a crime (and no carrying a weapon is not an indication of that).

3) All licensing would have to be free and tax paid.

4) All licensing centers would have to be able to license someone **on the spot** at time of purchase immediately and same day

5) anyone who wishes to cancel their license should have the option, if they wish, to purge their data from the system

If you manage to do those issues then you have an infringement free license... without those qualities then asking for a license 100% is a n infringement based ont he clear definition of the word.

> I don't get why you would have a need to carry a gun in public, and open carry in particular is physically intimidating to others in the same way that walking around with a large and aggressive dog is.

Open carry benefits those around you as a direct deterrent to criminal behavior. The sight of the weapon on a competent looking man or woman says, "F* around and find out" to would be evil doers.

The large dog can serve a similar purpose IF it is well trained and not threatening to act wildly on its own. (Guns don't often have the problem of acting on their own. When they are improperly holstered, the bearer feet tend to be the victims.)

@sdgathman @VoxDei

If anything Open Carry means better trained and more responsibke people can carry and display it while people who are twitchy ir not well suited to carry a gun can not carry one but still indirectly benefit from its protection.

Personally id say open carrying is a civil service if well trained.

@freemo @sdgathman You two as gun lovers think open carry is reassuring. I as a person who doesn't interact with them much find someone carrying a gun intimidating. If I ask you why you are carrying one, you will say "For protection", or similar, but that reassurance from someone I don't know means nothing. Are you drunk? Are you a drug dealer? Are you psychotic? If I disagree with you? If I cut you off in the car? If I spill your beer or trip over your foot or turn out to think Trump is the antichrist? Safer simply not to interact with you, so I won't unless I have to.

I actually hate guns. Too loud, heavy metal vapor, cadmium lubricant, lead projectiles contaminating soil, etc But I can appreciate the security they bring - even in the hands of law abiding but "twitchy" individuals. That just evokes the old saying, "An armed society is a polite society." You think that open carry guy looks sketchy? By all means stay away. Concealed carry has some sort of govt licensing/certification involved in most states to address your concerns.

One thing you and I likely agree on. Driving drunk (or otherwise intoxicated) is a crime (or should be), and so is carrying lethal force like a gun while drunk (or should be). It's one thing to be "twitchy", and quite a more deadly thing to be drunk.

My favored weapon would be ancient long bow (3 rounds/sec 12 round "magazine"), but I haven't had 5 acres min for beginners practice (shots go wild, like with an ancient sling shot). So crossbow is equivalent to a musket in self defense, actually loads a bit faster than a musket, is quiet, and uses non-toxic materials.

Anyone prepared to defend themselves (even with non-lethal force) should sign up with a legal defense organization for self defense. You will be persecuted legally if you survive an attack.

@freemo @sdgathman @VoxDei It’s the twitchy or not well suited which is the problem. All 2a purists seem to have their heads buried in the sand on this point. Don’t tell me the solid and trained will take of the twitchy one. They might but only after a lot of damage has occurred.

https://chatter.llamarific.social/@sdgathman/posts/AZs4N4OViieIBwx6X2

@icedquinn Sounds about in line with their usual stellar logic :)

@icedquinn for some reason i cant quote toot this... weird