@freemo btw, navajos still being killed by no water i hear. A big ass in the face for those responsible?
🇳🇱
@admitsWrongIfProven You'd have to be more specific, and what this is related to (was it supposed to be a reply).
@freemo it was supposed to be an inciting comment to shore up anger about injustice happening. Not a reply or related to anything at all.
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/20/1164852475/supreme-court-navajo-nation-water-rights
So foolish, staying inside the concentration camp. Their own fault? Guarantees given might only be good with a gun to the head, right?
Im confused what the issue is. I mean they dont have running water, that is of course a concern. But they are their own sovreign nation and seperate from the USA. That means if they want running water they are obligated to create their own infrastructure to do so. That means digging wells.
Which, they already do: https://watercode.navajo-nsn.gov/private_well_development.html
So im probably missing something here, sounds like their issue is with their own government not investing the money to build wells and bring drinking water to the people. Whats that have to do with our supreme court or the US's land? Why do they need access to that at all when they have access to ground water.
@freemo Hmm, i *might* have been misled here, but from what i heard there was a genocide and the survivors have been given a tiny bit of land and guaranteed water. Which is not being adhered to, as far as i hear?
To be clear: i have no issue with you, i just am pretty bummed by the global everyone-for-himself attitude. Making conversation in the face of destruction, not specific to you as a person.
I am not claiming to understand the situation, it was a genuine question.
Obviously as a native american myself the fact that we were genocided and mistreated isnt lost on me.
But they have access to water, ground water. Are you claiming the terms of the treaty was they would have justisdiction of the river? If so please share that and that would be enough info to convince me they have a right to it.
I know nothing about the details of the treaty that gave them the land. My assumption, and perhaps an incorrect one, is they were given a plot of land, that land has ground water on it so it includes access to water. Obviously the genocide was an injustice, where do you feel the resolution agreed upon, however, is not being honored?
@freemo Ah, so. I had seen multiple articles claiming navajo had no access to water.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/22/politics/supreme-court-navajo-nation-water/index.html
Are they ok?
No its correct that they have lack of access to water. But its important to note this is due to the negligence on the part of the Navajo nation, and not due to any misdeed of the USA.
As I showed, they have access to ground water and the government has a program in place to build wells. But their own government isnt carrying it out. So you should be outraged, but not at the USA, at the Navajo nation for not providing for their people when they could by not building enough wells or building up their infrastructure.
@freemo I see. Navajos are subhuman because they cannot even build wells. Well fuck them, not building enough wells. Fucking subhuman idiots deserve to die!
Thx for clearing that up!
Who said anything about them being subhuman... They absolutely could build wells and are capable... no one should be saying "fuck them" they should be saying "how dare the navajo government mistreat their people that way!"
@freemo You see, with all the "possibilities" you talk about - having the chance to realize those is not a given. Navajos is one, poor people is another. :-)
@admitsWrongIfProven They have a budget of about 2.7 billion for the 2024 fiscal year alone. If they spent lest money giving away free handouts to its people (which is quite generous actually) they would have had the money to build wells.
@freemo Well, we could build water supplies. Or walls. Our choice... or is it?
@freemo Funny thing is, about natives, they were beat in the war. They don't get to choose. Do we respect the power here? How much is your free will worth? Is it invalidated if you loose the war?
@admitsWrongIfProven Has absolutely nothing to do with the war. Has everything to do witht he fact that they waste their money on handouts rather than fixing problems. To give a people more when they already have enough and are just not using it properly will just enable them and not solve the problem.
@freemo You are talking about people that are confined to concentration camps. Are you absolutely sure that you want to say this in this way? Ignoring what problems are brought on by being confined in the camps? Are you really sure that this is what you want to say?
What? No they arent. They literally are allowed to leave their land any time and have all the rights of a citizen on USA soil... That is literally the exact opposite of a concentration camp.
No, they have **more** opportunities. While they have all the benefits of a US citizen AND a Navajo citizen, in the USA others only have the rights as a US citizen and can not receive any of the benefits Navajo citizens can get.
@freemo And you reject the notion that connections and wealth enble personal progress?
No I've explained this in detail before.
Give wealth to a person who hasnt been brought up to have good financial hygene will be as good as burning the money in a fire or worse. If its someone with unresolved issues (such as drug addiction or mental issues) then you will in fact enable their bad habits and sink them into a wose situation where they are more desperate, rather than helping.
Give that same money to someone with good financial hygiene and no underlying mental health problems and they are likely to use it to get out of poverty.
Most people in poverty dont have good financial hygiene, if they did they are unlikely (though not impossible) to be in that situation in the first place.
Now isntead of giving someone a pile of cash to waste you actually gave them a coupon for a free education, and a water well and other needs that actually will further them along, you will do far far more good than you would ever do giving them money to burn.
@freemo You have failed.
The natives had a very realistic working way of living. Your "hygene" idea is foreign and forced upon them. You do not have consent.
What is the word... what does one call someone who takes without asking consent?
@admitsWrongIfProven They dont need to use money or anything else. If they have such a perfect society without th eneed for money then let them continue that way, they shouldnt need our help then. They have a HUGE swath of land, 4x more land per person than most americans and 3x the resources/wealth. They have no obligation to use money or adhere to any western principles if they dont want to.
Given they have such a great society with everything figured out then why would they need our help?
@freemo So you support removing the invaders?
I support removing people who tresspass on private land by the land owners, yes.
By the way the life expectancy and quality of life in the novajo nation pre-columbian times was nothing impressive either. In fact most indications is that the death toll due to disease, lack of access to food, and waring between tribes was far from negligable.
As for removing invaders in general, when talking about nations, not private land... Then my stance is exactly the same as palestine. The people born ont he land have a right to citizenship of the land they are born to. Historic claims mean nothing to me beyond what you were entitled to at birth (so if your dad owned the land when you were born to it, or he was born to it as well you have a claim, but not to anyone who owned land before your birth).
@freemo Well. Whatever your forefathers did cannot influcnce what you have. Because that would be unfair - you are a human, and by that you need to have a fair chance, or we have no society at all.
@admitsWrongIfProven No, what your forefathers did can and should be able to influence you. It just shouldnt give you land rights as a nation, but should as an individual. I have a right to be a citizen on the land i was born regardless... But what nation that land falls under should not be based on ancestral claims.
@admitsWrongIfProven You really have this horrible habit of absolutism, both with your own views and in intentionally and unfairly interpreting others... as if nuance doesnt even exist... it sounds absurd and childish so far as an arguing tactic. It also just doesnt work if your trying to actually reach any sort of truth or positive effect. The world needs nuance.
@freemo The world does need nuance. Do you think what came out of this conquest of america is nuanced?
@admitsWrongIfProven yes and no. Some aspects of the USa government are nuanced, other aspects are not. Not all of those nuances are the correct ones either. Largely most governments lack the degree and nature of nuance that is needed. This include stje Novajo nation.
@freemo All of this is based in violence perpetrated long ago. As is here.
I long for a society not based on violence.
@admitsWrongIfProven It literally isnt, at no point did violence create the rule I stated (who is born on the land is citizen of the land).. inf act violence perpetuates the opposite, the land is owned by who takes it.
Violence doesnt dictate that if an immigrant has birth on my land then its theirs, violence never made that rule.
@freemo So if my father was a nazi, i should be killed? If my father was great, i should be given the keys to the city?
Dude, my father was great, but i disagree regardless. The people with horrible parents should not be punished. Not even you, who obviously had imperialist conquerors as parents. Not even you should be punished.
@freemo What should it be based on?
@admitsWrongIfProven I answered this already. It should be based on the democratic determinations of the people who are born to that land. Whcih is how it is done, novajo born get a democratic say in their governance, just as those born outside get a say in theirs. Similarly democratically either group could choose to merge with the other should they choose to do so.
@freemo So basically, you say violence is the answer? What brought about the current rule was violence, so to carry it forward, violence is the answer. Kill the imperialist pigs!
No I said nothing of the sort... What i stated (who is born on the land rules the land ) is not the current rule, so violence didnt bring about the current rule. Under that rule the current arrangement is sustained by the democratic choice of both nations, which is all that matters, not what people may have done int he past through violence, what matters is what we do now through democracy.
@freemo I really doubt that the native americans have a say proportional to what was. Their say is aligned by violence, it ist not? Did the americans come there and negotiate?
Huh? Be specific. What say arent they getting? They objectively get 3x-4x more than citizen of the USA both in terms of land, money, resources, literally everything... what are you even arguing for?
@freemo I am arguing that extermination was not cool. It is not important if their ways were better, it is not cool they were extermitated.
> I am arguing that extermination was not cool.
So you've been arguing a point that no one at any point remotely disagreed with and have explicitly agreed with.... Ok... cool
> It is not important if their ways were better, it is not cool they were extermitated.
Your right, if your only argument is that it was uncool that they were genocides then yea, at no point anyone argued with that. You made a separate argument about how great they were doing without money on their own (which wasnt true), but that being a falsehood was never used to claim genocide them was more acceptable as a result.
Still not sure why your arguing a thing that no one in their right mind has even hinted at disagreeing with.
@freemo The invaders fucked over the native people. Are you so sure of yourself that you want to say it will be better for them if whatever you say goes? Are you wiser, to the point to ignore the wishes they have?
Are you god?
@freemo So they have all the possibilities available to everyone else?