@lucifargundam
So this is I think last one of remaining left to reply / might have missed it...

https://qoto.org/@freeschool/108636609579643666

You asked for some Source material? General context?

and I basically said it might be best to see from the perspective "What you see don't see as covering all I said?" because frankly "practically all of it" covers it more than anything... and instead of me just writing I think you have better brains to focus on one or two of your own points so it's not just me ranting... What do you see that is not this kind of recursive dishonesty / tricking people / stealing etc etc (already mentioned) ?
What do you see as not that and even good?

Also if you don't want to reply then I can take that as a reply itself no probs and small unwanted victory that there isn't much in the world with stuff mentioned being under it and branching off.

@freeschool

For as.mucn as I may endure to struggle with reading your clearly well-driven replies, they also come across hastily written and poorly formatted for easier external consumption.

If I understand you correctly, when asked for an example or specific reference- you responded with a vague gesture as a means to imply that the requested citations were already presented. This was further emphasized with a deflection to assume general knowledge of numerous and likely torrentially-documented armed conflicts throughout a prolonged span of time. Finally, if I do still follow your convection of the discussion accurately enough- you suggested that I provide a brief example as to counter your position on the topic; that's considerate of you- thanks.
######################################
To be completely blunt, frank, laymen and short::

When has a single rubber duck bath toy ever killed anyone or led to the destruction of an entire ecosystem(outside of a John Wick fanfiction or some other nonsensical work of fiction)?

@lucifargundam
I recommend a draw game.

I think we both made a meal out of this though I favour my side because of the 'everything bad' as a type of underlying life tangent, I represent what is measurably control and power (of again everything)... nothing seems to click for you to continue... so I would draw this game.

All is good it seems for yoru world perhaps and well you might wait for specific examples on my side or can't accept your list of the bad things in the world... perhaps this stops you even mentioning your own exceptions in life...

So I tried twice, I think I can accept something isn't working here and well your reply is almost like a tease. So I wonder now if you're serious. Probably yes but computer kinda say no or I haven't asked it in the right way or given enough parameters apart from life is pretty shit - do you understand ? If not goto LINE 1.
Do Loop

I can't understand (without much frustration) how you don't get it at all and I must be missing something also (could be true but seems you might not be one to tell me). I do include that many times people can somehow not see using something bad to do good doesn't work, people don't get it literally it could be a big con and increasingly so... as if they can't admit it .
So you might agree but don't see overwhelming examples everywhere and can't miss (spin a roulette with all news on it or throw it as a dartboard list) but then you can't even counter or say anything much of an example yourself... rubber duck? John Wick?... are you serious?
...even humorously for sure you win.

Anyway... a draw is good for the attempt but you must be happy or content or blind... (and that includes me when *maybe* one day I realise something else

It's like a chip is missing... and don't mean that in a looking down way just would be happy to find it but I'm going to call it a draw game and part of the modern position. Understanding not found.

Saying so clearly so many times... to try and counter what in reality is literally everything... well maybe there is no answer for that

but what you said which frankly is overkill.

I also experienced it with more than one person... always technical or engineer orientated it seems... people who might totally agree but somehow can still overlook everything...

@lucifargundam

@lucifargundam A bit of catchup with this post... Just as a marker
I'll consider it a win (or a loss/lack of response) in responding for this until I see movement- might be a bit early to say but considering you're answering elsewhere, so this is getting to a forgotten stage more and more and I already reminded you about it by boosting your post...
Either way an unwanted outcome in the sport of responding so just in case you don't reply and while I'm not dead, it's a more clear reminder so I/others we don't wonder why this wasn't responded to and I'll chalk this as a bit of bail out by yourself or a "probably he's left already" ...a bit like emails / people can't manage keeping it going / feel better in leaving silently (still plenty of time and can delete this post, and consider this gentle motivation or even 'redeem' yourself a bit).

Without hating I get the feeling also from another post that you're holding back some emotions as you say
https://qoto.org/@lucifargundam/108630099723559688
and asking for reiteration (and being given it) still has that one also unresponde. So while I'm not collecting stuff on you I think it's good to clear and not let these mount, especially since you're responding elsewhere and might have really forgotten.

Also if this just your normal- just let me know :)

Not a big thing but I like to cover it earlier not bring it up in something else later
I believe if you let it get pent up then it can re-ignite things and turn into insults... but deal with it now and we're still neutral in any new topics or things we come across,

You've been responsive so far so I'm not baiting you into negativity... this is just really how it goes sometimes and after playing enough chess / communication I can see when someone has left the virtual table and when it's tempting for others to not even accept defeat (which this game is not about) or want to explain their side... It's common to leave things unsaid similar at tje moments of certain moves of what is being said (see my post before this)

For example even if you think my post doesn't deserve reply, still it deserve reply unless I've really deliberately made way to insult you which isn't the case.

And in the world of communication it's important to continue and finish things.

If you had responded I wouldn't have written this :) - again it's fast t o write so for me it's no problem in writing there might be a problem.

@freeschool
My apologies, I get a lot of notifications in my feed and this one got buried.

From the sounds of it, you claim common business practices only exist to selfishly leech resources from individuals/nature.

It seems you also claim that all technology does is drive humanity apart into mutual bloodshed that reciprocates the want for more technology.

Are any of these refections correct?

@lucifargundam
Hmm, that's almost changing it... or making it weaker...

- I mean whatever we do or give them "they will consistently find a way to fuck things further **despite** your good intentions / inventions. Sorry STEM.
(You can't trust this system or way of government or all progression under these terms are in vain / are a known danger as we already see being used again people or for profit)

- We have also gone past maximums (there is a limit business does not factor in or consider- it's more infinite or by any means more even though we're on a finite planet)

Does that help see what I mean with those points... no point giving more to that and helping that... it seems actually ignored sometimes or just treated as object despite those behind it.

@freeschool
- you claim STEM to be a purely government-funded program it seems, but a STEM can be started/hosted/ran by anyone on any level. Generally speaking, people in general bastardize good intentions- governments just "go big" on it.
- not sure what you mean by business limits unless you're talking natural resources explicitly.
- not trying to ignore you. If I don't respond right away, either the message got buried in my notifications or I'm working.

@lucifargundam
I'm claiming they are the one's that bastardise everything and everything on top of that is (they wouldn't let things out of their domination plans or out of their control and even worse would do more bastard things)
I think people don't believe the above and don't see many passive agressive things,..

So both ways around with people being bastards/untrained/inexperienced etc who doing things badly but never so organised or as much or as incrementally connected to all the other government designs seen and copied in many governments (a gang that would be shorter lived and doesn't have connections to law, banks, military, clever bods in their programs and sponsorships etc)

As Government Regulates, directs everything + has companies that are like subsidising to itself, they simply give grants / give incentives etc etc almost like paying yourself or bought friends ganging on others
and then on top we have some nice things things to play with on top... not quite proud of that when infrastructure or even development is for pure military or other control things and just domesticate or given so we can have devices in our homes as good as state given 1984 stuff.
(nothing to be too happy about looking at danger more than the + parts)

And yes to the business limits in terms of natural resources. Numbers and people (STEM or otherwise) are expecting forever 'progress' (profit) which is where STEM people like engineers I think have a dangerous mis-wiring to forever be in modes of 'progress' which you can get to short-circuit if you say not all progress is healthy progress... and that all new solutions are ALWAYS going to be bad under bad people- STEM I think almost ignore the hand feeding them.
So many factors I mentioned.

It's not a happy place but we've been cheated from a long line of doing things badly and war-based tech-tree tangent to jam it all into one sentence.
No good games are really to be played here other than improving people's mindset. If you ever lpay chess 1000 times and aren't perfect you can conclude the system is not great for people winning or playing together.

Not going towards equalising a million deliberate things under control of others.

Anyway it's turning into rant as everything again is a bad game... and no solutions I can give more than going around everything...

It could be possible it's not as important or close to you or seen, so I'm keen not to push it here... Can't Trust anything... pretty much.... it's more than likely a rigged dynamic / game / relationship / casino and not towards measurably good things

What STEM almost doesn't factor in is the human things, and so reinforces bad things as you do need to work on human things if you're human and STEM is arguable mostly not that... and hence why Facebook type functions are almost allowed while innocent tech people say 'hey it wasn't me' and of course hard to stop what you love to do in a lab or boiler rooms for ideas.

Many things can be use cold and STEM ignores it / isn't paid to go against progress. Shouldn't be surprised or get angry if people ask them why they help such governments AND not help do something ELSE about it than manufacture or develop more.

Need to find a way to stop that..
To avoid "it wasn't me" or "it's just my job" to see more clearly where everything goes and what for....

We've fallen behind really serving people what they need.

Anyway feels like you got main points and I'd just go listing more things. Seriously I think you got it...

Feel free to share what your work is while not expect all the detail or scrutinise it ... if it's unhealthy maybe no need. I should look for more healthy stuff more often and I guess I am anyway. This is all fast writing and so at least my time isn't too taken... might revise this later.

@freeschool
It seems like you keep going into a recursive loop of saying anyone who conducts business is contributing to the extortion depletion of resources and should be accountable. That STEM is bad and inhuman because it doesn't implement societal concerns into research and projects.

If that is the case, I do sympathize with your ideals and do have some small merit of alignment with an it- but largely disagree.

But that's ok. It's fine to differ on important topics- and can lead to possibly fruitful takeaways. The important concern would be to uphold mutual respect and appropriate consideration for each side of the healthy discussion.

That being said, I agree many corporations are naturally selfish and possibly destructive- especially narrow-minded individuals who seek only personal profit at every step. However, business aspects like global trade and industrialization do not explicitly lead to evil or black-hearted nature of people- nor destruction of natural resources.

Anyone can start their own STEM program and have it funded however they wish and uphold whatever projects they want in their program. You can start a STEM program in your garage focused on fixing societal issues for all anyone cares. How you would go about organizing and planning such is beyond me and I would be interested to hear how _you_ would think that would go. Maybe start by calling it STEMS? Science technology engineering mathematics for Society?

Again, I don't like what happens at the top- but that doesn't mean I will burn the whole tower down. I might just try to make changes from wherever I stand at that point in time.

Without mankind's efforts to make progress with intellectual and material concepts that would be deemed science thousands of years later- we would not have made it this far into this path of evolution past being cavemen. We learned how to make fire- thousands of years later, we throw fire at each other in the form of bombs and use it daily to cook food for our young.

@lucifargundam
Good stuff, I like what you wrote.

Recursive loop is an excellent way to represent what I mean. I also mention a few other ways of saying the same thing below but basically yes everything from that becomes below my accepted level of integrity and even less workable progress (it's not really progress if it's killing or eating energy way too fast knowingly at benefit of a certain few or good for a bit and then suddenly keels over / lies dead)
It feels spawning of a bad spawn to that spawns more bad again and again (no wonder why people do bad if they they are forced to work under ever worse conditions or simply systematic negligence / NOT HAVING A REAL SCIENCE FOR CARING or respect of it... just nothing in the system shouts we care above greed) so getting this 'good' and actually just about having it hijacked and getting worse (so really it's not good despite what people think or feel a small snapshot of time)... so while we all want for good things (I guess most of us) I'm strict in saying no to profit/greed business/extraction/hijacking good because looks where it gets us (even faster in negative numbers and 'progress with all what we mentioned and can imagine) because I don't believe it gets any better or the loop gets under any control or integrity continuing like that...

Much like a tangent of dishonesty / tricking people / taking advantage of it's ignorant users made even more ignorant by a system that says 'not we'll take care of that, you just get back to your mono-focus in 'work'/job) it just gets more dishonest or ignored or swept under... being honest is basically what I believe was and still can be held up... if we're not to busy making people stay busy and ignorant... and even if nature doesn't grow straight or consistently we could learn to accept that (which I think maths and it's human controllers don't calculate and can't factor in problems / they don't want to) so it's up to us to work around it ...
else quickly life goes wildly off course unnaturally (and naturally). We know these ways disrupt people and it's planet and still we won't have anything to represent and it is funny how people don't even thinking in less than a few hundred years it's possible from lots of angles we don't exist!... (if we continue this way maybe). Like we have a free planet and then we put on a price on it while plundering it... lots of ways it's wrong burning the candle at both ends.

The rest I think is more for me or finding a few more points... read leisurely

So while I don't want to burn it down I think that basic recursive / repeated pattern has to be eliminated else debt and all that happens with all the good things attached to it / embedded / rotting it. We are just adding more and more weight to hang on to even little, paying more dearly (at cost of planet and spaces) which still are using the basic bad rhythm / algorithms which is why now people can't get even get off them being born into/onto it (like installing a faulty life support machine or DRM type block everywhere). So we still face the same decision at the end Yes or No to the root patterns? Using Facebook/STEM to get out of it - please don't underestimate your realm / art / sciences / and the % of fuckers of life you give ammo or tech to, Choosing the middle or 'it's not' me or not even answering also = yes more than no as living itself is a way of killing things faster and STEM is not necessarily anything to really care of that or human side of caring... "no it's ok I've just made this innocent thing yeah!" I think it's enough and needs switching to people orientated things -- even if I don't know all the possibilities it's about research and trying the same way science discovered things... but who wants to talk about that? So that's what you get... it's 1:1 when you're not working with humans ON HUMAN THINGS

I have no idea probably but seems so simply if you don't work such important things it and can't see why governments would give money or set up matrices for things (and not others) then you're kind of like new to the world of war. I think people don't expect any of this to cause problems somehow or do and want to blame others on TV or wherever else.

Solutions (as a start)
The 'hands and feet' ways and regressing too advanced ways keeps us closer to planet and people which if we haven't done we will have to do (all ways should be hard as teh easy way is just a bum package deal)
'Hands and feet' ways means doing things by hand as much as possible what technology gave us (maybe keeping a few key components). This 'to the ground level' (a bit more) would limit and preserve planet and give us more time to think and talk and do things like plant stuff and not do the financial / virtual / government type extraction and cheating of others work. We would be limited by our own small power and have to honestly focus on food, not leveraging ways that are not sustainable by a basic human or over-specialising or design obsolescence / defective by design stuff https://www.defectivebydesign.org/... making seeds designed to grow only for 1 year type traps of life. From here go back to more of these kind things slowly is what I offer rather than big cut. And starve companies more and do less machines (which are extended consumption / governed by government).

Again I like what you wrote and that way of saying it sums it up and as a kind of mathematical negative virus keep chomping away at the human expecting them to pay forever... and simply to increase negative to spin and 'growth' of negatives in order to keep control... so again more hangs off of all that (including people) and that decision for me is easy, stop that and don't make life based on it as it's worse later... so it's kind of saving a worse scale event and accepting there is no bad in the scenario only to stop it earlier..., saving 'the worst' scenario later... ideally 'delete' and start again from some point (or my versions of "slow it the down" while increasing human friendliness and design).

I wanted to mention the power spread is also according to will power and determined of others shaping of good which I guess these ways avoid if people could have more genuine focus or realisation (growing plants and people mostly) and not seeing their comforts as permanent,
People without the will or time is getting towards a level of 'as good as dead' in my view... "kind of don't have time or mental capacity after work for the rest of life sorry".
It's far from sustainable working a job and design that when it's easier or pays more would simply balance it back to make it 'fair'!
In the bad exchange called cheating people and the planet and people... this is not the way of life by far... 'as good as dead' or zombie is perhaps a good way to say it... just a person without many human things, getting less human so no wonder (we are seeing a lot of uncaringness everywhere on the streets).
It's a direct exchange happening in the background all the while of any comfort. While I don't wish to make anyone feel bad I think STEM's compliment to itself and matrices ways is just too consistent to ignore.

Another way I would say about the recursive loop is as a tojan virus constantly there even when you think you cleaned it or have a new child (a kind of pattern repeated and worse off siutation like a corrupted filesystem constantly damaging every now and again even more... but yeah "you can keep a few files there" (!) I'm sure many would still use this kind of system like we are seeing with money and tech itself (again referencing back to picture) and similar is monetary debt (you can keep a few humans alive for a while, maybe 1 century more!) and I would choose not to do this way (to clean the hard disk or reset the monetary supply if indeed we must have that and if we don't have the will to avoid money and those people's will)...

I admit life is a continual thing and not designed to go back to the previous stages of work like a previous snapshot of life saved to disk or restorable point to start from there again... but I think it is possible WITH your will power or another persons and books and history we have... and I think many people give up by default and assume new STEM thigns will solves things and get on board with those instead of looking back... Perhaps this old and new I could say is two version like planned obsolescence thinking versus genuine "save the world' inventions (which if shared could feed the planet than humanity extracting from itself)

STEM things as solution do not realising it's regulated by the corrupt or simply disinterested like the fault hard disk / operating system example.

You mentioned anyone can start a STEM program etc... Maybe I don't know what that means... I don't think anyone can start a STEM program AND have it funded... inventors of the past have been literally blocked from doing such good things and anyway anyone's non-business-like intentions are a direct conflict of business intentions to what doesn't make money / shares / gives inventions away (share without patent?) / etc.

There might not be an undo point where we can simply realise and build better version now that we know some things aren't it (long chains of factories and finance) but anyway the will must be there regardless of how effective the words are... remember I have invited you to talk and I think it only encourages more crappy writing not to do this (if we're serious about solving things 1 by 1)

To the point about not getting to this point in evolution... I don't think this was the only way to get to a similar place in time or level.. indeed with time (perhaps even earlier) many things we could have reach easily and even we are late in the doing so. It amazing but with the combinations I think life would happen like something growing inevitably...
AND easily we could have done / could do better! We actually probably went 'the wrong tangent' if that exist more than pulling it back for ourselves in the now... but from our point of view almost like giving up our own power we might say "it's amazing and we couldn't have done it any other way or without xyz happening or person... " when reality is that there are soooo many people and soooo much time that the combination for all this and everything to happen... is very possible and even better ways could have happened first or last or in different order.
I think not only could we have achieved but we could have done it in shorter time!! (not that I'm saying I would have wanted it but the combination of a few discoveries earlier would easily save a few 100 years, while really caring for people could also have been a 1st or the only puzzle piece (much like money may have been) and that maybe be would work on and still keep things intact! Like smiply a different currency drilled into people or copied and pasted as 'government' (or stewards / pay it forward type stuff which possibly we have seem glimpses of some history also)
"STEMS" as you say or for "society" is not bad but I feel "caring" or something really clear for humans is what is needed almost as a restriction like:
STEM-C (Caring)

So I contend it was / is ...and still is possible for many things! You only need to drive it and be part of that and die somewhat trying which either way people kind of do. Plenty of years to do in especially if you're comfortable and not dead yet.
So from today join me in chat evolution ! Without audible chat I feel this is literally delaying it and you'll get long text recursiveness perhaps... this being a mini example of the delay in humanity of talking more often with each other and making light-friendship (your call though, indeed you can mix it up / experiment a bit , even if you think what you're doing is more human or whatever).

Anyway I think you have right heart, and yes I'd involve a more society / caring method / strategy attached to everything STEM ...
once people respect a person / ask for consent from user / don't get too clever alienating others, then all will be a lot more harmonious and find it's place more naturally (even with differences of intelligence). Just not much more money-backed STEM - it's to advantageous of idiots to come along and press wrong buttons or press them too many times.

So without will or looking for solutions from industrial / parasitical stuff and without expecting help before starting the willpower, this isn't necessarily going to be the will power that can develop it or anything decent... Again I'm happy to audibly talk about this... and actually this is naturally test if people are willing to handle human interaction itself without man/tech etc in the middle.... as I feel this is also a tangent now where people can't even interact or need business to conduct it for them in the middle.

may revise this soon

I guess I would like to come out of my loop of everything being connected and corrupted but I simply don't see how if environment is full with this stuff.