IMPROVE PEOPLE _NOT JUST TECH_ @freeschool@qoto.org

Everything can be a type of exchange...

Many sorts of exchange...

But give freely / lovingly those exchanges can come around again as a better indirect exchange and even grow itself while you do other things and 'it' can provide for others too...

#nature and #people #exchange
[by #giving #time #listening #helping increasing #biodiversity things #grow ]

#whatgoesaroundcomesaround

The multiplicity and relativity of viewpoints means all the arguments hold some sort of validity from genuine participants and gets more towards underlying or common #Truth.

Holding truth is very important for people and personal truth as value itself. Not to ignore genuine individual people or feel that you are being ignored is a big part of which Anekantavada already expects to have "many sides" to any given perspective.

For those not genuine I think they are often people who are not finding a place of acceptance and rebel or have no way of expression and have to go for lesser things or more forceful / direct ways simply because they can't do that in existing world (for example they are shut off by others or systematically) so feelings are also a reflection of the way it is now. If expression has no place or very little is actually respected (none is actually heard or example just goes to twisted mainstream social media) then people lashes out or isn't training better which safe spaces online or in person you will agree is so much better conversing and exchanging views about rather than taking offense or mainstream reaction-culture.

The mass of opinion usually overwhelms people or system (of course most systems actually are deliberately installed as they "don't want to know" from the very beginning and use computers etc to enforce that) but taken as relativity by individuals as their own planetary style system themselves, Anekantavada perspective makes it a lot less cut-throat in expectations from opinions and personally more accepting / softer to accept. )

"Because the Jain position was able to overcome the apparent inconsistencies between the other views (or religions)... it came closer to fully grasping the one underlying truth, satya."

( This underlying or let's say META from personal experiences or opinions is often really what we want to "get" to AND without discounting genuine views - whatever our opinion - because we each have of those and are improving them)

THAT MEANS OUR OPINIONS CAN CHANGE ALSO!

#Anekantavada also says in short, for everything: "in some ways it is and in some ways it is not, sometimes both at the same time" which is also factual in terms of object or people's attributes and opinions being true in this sense but untrue if looking as different category or comparison.

So more often it is not 1 or 0 or universally all true or false but always a mix of who is looking at what and how... because often "it is that" and then "it isn't that" (and it can be changing or alternating like a mood) so in some way it's so much better to be accepting of that from the beginning... because especially as people, we change and so do things around us. Having such rigidity is actually the problem that makes us break rules or expectations so easily.

As extreme example you can see how #fascism / #binary / #tech doesn't work or is insensitive to people's diversity or opinions because it cuts it out / forces right boxes, confines to narrow pipes of expression etc...

I'd add that this is multi-sided-ness is totally natural, not just from my perspective and yours (individuality as onlookers) but also from the nature perspective of our world where each thing can serve another purpose for many reasons or the appreciation can seen in a different light depending on who / what creature is shining light on it or sharing it- sometimes quite momentary, ethereal and holding context by 2 or more at the time where alone it might not seem to exist...

This way could be the most beautiful and consistent way to appreciate the #beauty and awe (or awesomeness) of the world together and make that #life itself.

Mostly my writing - few paragraphs from this source:

Harvard Pluralism Project:
https://pluralism.org/anekantavada-the-relativity-of-views

#DeusEx comments I chose...
#Cyberpunk game #RPG #genre

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023
#1

It managed to capture the true spirit of our time, the erosion of rights like privacy or freedom of movement, the erosion of ancient national traditions, of spiritual convictions that grant dignity to human life, or inherited ethnic roots, by globalist cabals, in favour of rootless consumers, and a homogenous global migrant labour force, in a way very little else has. A French woman lamenting the loss of national sovereignty, tastes, and identity, to globalist-driven internationalism. Political change that was never sought, elected, or given democratic mandate, driven by faceless cabals. American nationals rebelling because the principles of the American Revolution have been sold out to international finance. If a certain type of fiction, is meant to take a serious look at society, it looks downright prophetic compared to things that pose as serious observational takes today. To be fair, cyberpunk of all kinds predicts a dystopia, but Deux Ex presented it's case in a way that has aged like wine. At the time, I just thought it was a cyberpunk trope to imagine the worst corporation-ruled excess, in which everything was commodified, and that Deus Ex was one permutation of this future. Today, we have seen the entire planet locked down, a vaccine administered without years of trials that usually accompany a new medicine, campaigns directed against the heritage of nations, school-imparted historical illiteracy; so Deus Ex's depictions of disaster policy, or how information is controlled, looks very apt.

UwGEEMH.png

Most criticism of globalism, around then, used to be leftist, at least outside America; more anti-capitalist agenda driven, seeing class as the only dimension of life, rather than being just generally pro-living things, pro-truth, anti-exploitation, they were vaguely socialist or anarchist. This was before most European and American leftists, usually middle-class, were revealed to care more about rootless internationalism, access to exotic food, and open border migration than their own people's suffering or welfare. The majority of socialists were revealed as the ally of globalism, their media using tools of 'social justice' to further erode actual justice. Primarily leftist critiques tended to suppress the ethnic-denying and destroying component to globalism. National tribes being one of the principle barriers to internationalism and thus one of the foremost targets of globalist propaganda. Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years, with organic customs, were "always migrants", etc. Deus Ex was more balanced, showing that the nation state has been a potent barrier to international financial agendas, often the primary means a people had of resisting global empire. Showing favourable attempts at resistance rooted in American, French or Chinese national tradition.

DvzAyVE.png

Even Human Revolution is suprisingly true to the spirit of the first game. I think it's the second solid entry. Taking a look at science magazines and predicting where transhumanism would be in a decade or two through short 2-page ebooks. Some of it's in-game takes now look remarkably based for a 2011 cross-platform game on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC; criticism of the EU (something that is a totally contentious in some circles now), United Nations and cartels like the Bilderburg Group. Media that focused on something other than predictable establishment approved messages, was given more of a pass in those days. Whether or not they just threw whatever interesting 'conspiracy' they had into it, or had a more concerted world view, it worked out well.

Cat Headed Eagle
Joined Jan 21, 2023
Messages 3,593

Sep 5, 2023
#2

Deus Ex is relatively formulaic in its presentation, it's basically the core cyberpunk values as developed in the 80s but adorned by late 90s americana. Much of it is there in William Gibson's works. Cyberpunk is basically an answer to reaganomics and the cocaine induced enthusiasm of 80s yuppies. Deus Ex didn't create anything, but it is the best example of cyberpunk in gaming, because it is very matter-of-fact, and every aspect of cyberpunk and its aesthetic and themes are taken at face value.

buffalo bill
Joined Dec 8, 2016
Messages 1,039

Sep 5, 2023
#3

as fiction, neuromancer > > > deus ex

AlwaysBrotoMen
Joined Aug 30, 2023
Messages 259

Sep 5, 2023
#4

System shock, Blade Runner, and Snatcher are also good examples of cyberpunk.

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023

#5

Blade Runner is aesthetic, but relatively 'apolitical'.

My favorites would be Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner, The Matrix, Syndicate Wars, and Deus Ex.

Madclown
Joined Sep 4, 2023
Messages 1

Sep 5, 2023
#6

I feel as the term "Cyberpunk" has been perverted a good bit over the years, but yes, Deus Ex, and to an extent the prequels are contenders, at least with regards to computer games.

NecroLord
Joined Sep 6, 2022
Messages 13,140

Sep 7, 2023
#7

If I remember correctly Mike Pondsmith played Deus Ex and said it is not Cyberpunk (but he did like it).
It certainly lacks some of the style and flash associated with Cyberpunk, but it is a Dystopian setting.
With that being said, Deus Ex is one of my favorite games. It has left a strong legacy and its influence can be felt up to this day.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#8

Deus Ex is not cyberpunk since Denton is working for the government. Which renders the entire game CyberCorpo or CyberGov if you want to nitpick. To be punk one must be rebelling against the gov or the corps and stealing their shit so you can survive another day. In other words, you have to be a runner or a cowboy that operates outside the law.

NecroLord
JamesDixon said:
since Denton is working for the government

At least for the first part of the game.

Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.

— Lawrence Person

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#11

I missed this. I don't see how Reaganomics played a role in it since Cyberpunk originated with New Wave Sci-Fi of the 1960s and 1970s. Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

Tyranicon
Joined Oct 7, 2019
Messages 7,453

Sep 8, 2023
#12

JamesDixon said:
marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic future

....Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

good book but it's not cyberpunk

way closer to cyberpunk is 'the shockwave rider' by brunner from 1975, which has a cool pre-internet vision of the internet and phone phreaking type hacking. but that's really also proto-cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

PorkyThePaladin
Joined Dec 17, 2013
Messages 5,376

Sep 8, 2023
#15

Louis_Cypher said:
...

Lol, funny post.

"Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years"

Name one nation that has been homogenous for 20,000 years. :)

There is nothing wrong per se with wanting to globalize the world. It's the most logical position for anyone who has learned about all the pointless wars of history, and sees (somewhat accurately) the human race as a bunch of violent monkeys on some speck of dust floating in space. Not to mention that this is a likely prerequisite for starting to colonize space.

The issues with it are:

1. It's one thing to have globalization as a gradual goal to aspire to, but it's another to shove it through at insane speed before various groups are ready for it. That's how you get let's say Euro countries flooded with immigrants from various backward nations, who start imposing aspects of their backward cultures on the locals which are not welcome.

2. The way the world is constructed, good things often lead to bad things. So while globalization is a good thing in many ways, it also makes us susceptible to the downsides of human nature much more that a more decentralized model. If you have a bunch of different nations, and one of them gets taken over by a horrible government, all the others are still ok and can counter it, but with a global government, if it turns bad (as every government in history at some point does), it's much more difficult to get rid of it.

General Disarray
Joined Feb 7, 2019
Messages 204

Sep 8, 2023
#16

I have actually been trying to familiarize my self a bit more with cyberpunk and similar subgenres recently. Like JamesDixon if you take a hardline stance the theme and setting is cyberpunk, but the character is not. Instead it is tech noir or cyber noir. Usually works like this like Ghost In The Shell gets classified as post cyberpunk, which to what I gathered is simply cyberpunk but has loosed the requirements of having a punk protagonist and also is accepting that technology could benefit humanity. Post cyberpunk being developed in the nineties where normal people started to interact with the modern internet and use computers in their daily life and thus making a lot of the 80s cyberpunk look hopelessly dated, archaic and a fantasy.

Maxie
Joined Nov 13, 2021
Messages 7,964

Sep 8, 2023
#17

snow crash the book is better because it's playful and schlocky, meanwhile deus ex is a soulless 'punk' product

Hobo Elf
Joined Feb 17, 2009
Messages 14,131

Sep 8, 2023
#18

Deus Ex the first game may very well be one of the best works of fiction ever made regardless of genre. Its sequels.. not so much.

Kev Inkline
Joined Nov 17, 2015
Messages 5,378

A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.

Sep 8, 2023
#20

Did you guys know that Pondsmith says he was more influenced by Hardwired by Walter Jon Williams than by Neuromancer? I think the former is also up there with the best of the genre. I wouldn't let Pondsmith's opinion what makes a piece of media cyberpunk be of any guidance, anyways.

JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

DX1 is about the best of the genre in computer gaming, but as people have pointed out, storywise alone it's nothing groundbreaking.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 8, 2023
#21

buffalo bill said:
good book but it's not cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

DADOES is cyberpunk whether you like it or not.

See folks this is your brain on drugs. Nowhere in my reply that he quoted did I say anything about William Gibson's work. What did Gibson do that added to the cyberpunk genre? He added netrunning. That's it. Gibson is influential, but he's not the father of cyberpunk.

Kev Inkline said:
@JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

I'll side with Mike Pondsmith on this one. He is the father of the Cyberpunk RPG and he says it's good sci-fi, but it's not cyberpunk.

Last edited: Sep 8, 2023

Falksi
Joined Feb 14, 2017
Messages 10,912

Sep 8, 2023
#24

Fucking Masterpiece of whatever it is

forum source:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/is-the-deus-ex-series-overall-the-best-work-of-cyberpunk-fiction-ever-made.148195/

#Cyberpunk game #genre
#DeusEx comments...

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023
#1

It managed to capture the true spirit of our time, the erosion of rights like privacy or freedom of movement, the erosion of ancient national traditions, of spiritual convictions that grant dignity to human life, or inherited ethnic roots, by globalist cabals, in favour of rootless consumers, and a homogenous global migrant labour force, in a way very little else has. A French woman lamenting the loss of national sovereignty, tastes, and identity, to globalist-driven internationalism. Political change that was never sought, elected, or given democratic mandate, driven by faceless cabals. American nationals rebelling because the principles of the American Revolution have been sold out to international finance. If a certain type of fiction, is meant to take a serious look at society, it looks downright prophetic compared to things that pose as serious observational takes today. To be fair, cyberpunk of all kinds predicts a dystopia, but Deux Ex presented it's case in a way that has aged like wine. At the time, I just thought it was a cyberpunk trope to imagine the worst corporation-ruled excess, in which everything was commodified, and that Deus Ex was one permutation of this future. Today, we have seen the entire planet locked down, a vaccine administered without years of trials that usually accompany a new medicine, campaigns directed against the heritage of nations, school-imparted historical illiteracy; so Deus Ex's depictions of disaster policy, or how information is controlled, looks very apt.

UwGEEMH.png

Most criticism of globalism, around then, used to be leftist, at least outside America; more anti-capitalist agenda driven, seeing class as the only dimension of life, rather than being just generally pro-living things, pro-truth, anti-exploitation, they were vaguely socialist or anarchist. This was before most European and American leftists, usually middle-class, were revealed to care more about rootless internationalism, access to exotic food, and open border migration than their own people's suffering or welfare. The majority of socialists were revealed as the ally of globalism, their media using tools of 'social justice' to further erode actual justice. Primarily leftist critiques tended to suppress the ethnic-denying and destroying component to globalism. National tribes being one of the principle barriers to internationalism and thus one of the foremost targets of globalist propaganda. Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years, with organic customs, were "always migrants", etc. Deus Ex was more balanced, showing that the nation state has been a potent barrier to international financial agendas, often the primary means a people had of resisting global empire. Showing favourable attempts at resistance rooted in American, French or Chinese national tradition.

DvzAyVE.png

Even Human Revolution is suprisingly true to the spirit of the first game. I think it's the second solid entry. Taking a look at science magazines and predicting where transhumanism would be in a decade or two through short 2-page ebooks. Some of it's in-game takes now look remarkably based for a 2011 cross-platform game on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC; criticism of the EU (something that is a totally contentious in some circles now), United Nations and cartels like the Bilderburg Group. Media that focused on something other than predictable establishment approved messages, was given more of a pass in those days. Whether or not they just threw whatever interesting 'conspiracy' they had into it, or had a more concerted world view, it worked out well.

Cat Headed Eagle
Joined Jan 21, 2023
Messages 3,593

Sep 5, 2023
#2

Deus Ex is relatively formulaic in its presentation, it's basically the core cyberpunk values as developed in the 80s but adorned by late 90s americana. Much of it is there in William Gibson's works. Cyberpunk is basically an answer to reaganomics and the cocaine induced enthusiasm of 80s yuppies. Deus Ex didn't create anything, but it is the best example of cyberpunk in gaming, because it is very matter-of-fact, and every aspect of cyberpunk and its aesthetic and themes are taken at face value.

buffalo bill
Joined Dec 8, 2016
Messages 1,039

Sep 5, 2023
#3

as fiction, neuromancer > > > deus ex

AlwaysBrotoMen
Joined Aug 30, 2023
Messages 259

Sep 5, 2023
#4

System shock, Blade Runner, and Snatcher are also good examples of cyberpunk.

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023

#5

Blade Runner is aesthetic, but relatively 'apolitical'.

My favorites would be Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner, The Matrix, Syndicate Wars, and Deus Ex.

Madclown
Joined Sep 4, 2023
Messages 1

Sep 5, 2023
#6

I feel as the term "Cyberpunk" has been perverted a good bit over the years, but yes, Deus Ex, and to an extent the prequels are contenders, at least with regards to computer games.

NecroLord
Joined Sep 6, 2022
Messages 13,140

Sep 7, 2023
#7

If I remember correctly Mike Pondsmith played Deus Ex and said it is not Cyberpunk (but he did like it).
It certainly lacks some of the style and flash associated with Cyberpunk, but it is a Dystopian setting.
With that being said, Deus Ex is one of my favorite games. It has left a strong legacy and its influence can be felt up to this day.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#8

Deus Ex is not cyberpunk since Denton is working for the government. Which renders the entire game CyberCorpo or CyberGov if you want to nitpick. To be punk one must be rebelling against the gov or the corps and stealing their shit so you can survive another day. In other words, you have to be a runner or a cowboy that operates outside the law.

NecroLord
JamesDixon said:
since Denton is working for the government

At least for the first part of the game.

Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.

— Lawrence Person

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#11

I missed this. I don't see how Reaganomics played a role in it since Cyberpunk originated with New Wave Sci-Fi of the 1960s and 1970s. Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

Tyranicon
Joined Oct 7, 2019
Messages 7,453

Sep 8, 2023
#12

JamesDixon said:
marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic future

....Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

good book but it's not cyberpunk

way closer to cyberpunk is 'the shockwave rider' by brunner from 1975, which has a cool pre-internet vision of the internet and phone phreaking type hacking. but that's really also proto-cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

PorkyThePaladin
Joined Dec 17, 2013
Messages 5,376

Sep 8, 2023
#15

Louis_Cypher said:
...

Lol, funny post.

"Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years"

Name one nation that has been homogenous for 20,000 years. :)

There is nothing wrong per se with wanting to globalize the world. It's the most logical position for anyone who has learned about all the pointless wars of history, and sees (somewhat accurately) the human race as a bunch of violent monkeys on some speck of dust floating in space. Not to mention that this is a likely prerequisite for starting to colonize space.

The issues with it are:

1. It's one thing to have globalization as a gradual goal to aspire to, but it's another to shove it through at insane speed before various groups are ready for it. That's how you get let's say Euro countries flooded with immigrants from various backward nations, who start imposing aspects of their backward cultures on the locals which are not welcome.

2. The way the world is constructed, good things often lead to bad things. So while globalization is a good thing in many ways, it also makes us susceptible to the downsides of human nature much more that a more decentralized model. If you have a bunch of different nations, and one of them gets taken over by a horrible government, all the others are still ok and can counter it, but with a global government, if it turns bad (as every government in history at some point does), it's much more difficult to get rid of it.

General Disarray
Joined Feb 7, 2019
Messages 204

Sep 8, 2023
#16

I have actually been trying to familiarize my self a bit more with cyberpunk and similar subgenres recently. Like JamesDixon if you take a hardline stance the theme and setting is cyberpunk, but the character is not. Instead it is tech noir or cyber noir. Usually works like this like Ghost In The Shell gets classified as post cyberpunk, which to what I gathered is simply cyberpunk but has loosed the requirements of having a punk protagonist and also is accepting that technology could benefit humanity. Post cyberpunk being developed in the nineties where normal people started to interact with the modern internet and use computers in their daily life and thus making a lot of the 80s cyberpunk look hopelessly dated, archaic and a fantasy.

Maxie
Joined Nov 13, 2021
Messages 7,964

Sep 8, 2023
#17

snow crash the book is better because it's playful and schlocky, meanwhile deus ex is a soulless 'punk' product

Hobo Elf
Joined Feb 17, 2009
Messages 14,131

Sep 8, 2023
#18

Deus Ex the first game may very well be one of the best works of fiction ever made regardless of genre. Its sequels.. not so much.

Kev Inkline
Joined Nov 17, 2015
Messages 5,378

A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.

Sep 8, 2023
#20

Did you guys know that Pondsmith says he was more influenced by Hardwired by Walter Jon Williams than by Neuromancer? I think the former is also up there with the best of the genre. I wouldn't let Pondsmith's opinion what makes a piece of media cyberpunk be of any guidance, anyways.

JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

DX1 is about the best of the genre in computer gaming, but as people have pointed out, storywise alone it's nothing groundbreaking.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 8, 2023
#21

buffalo bill said:
good book but it's not cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

DADOES is cyberpunk whether you like it or not.

See folks this is your brain on drugs. Nowhere in my reply that he quoted did I say anything about William Gibson's work. What did Gibson do that added to the cyberpunk genre? He added netrunning. That's it. Gibson is influential, but he's not the father of cyberpunk.

Kev Inkline said:
@JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

I'll side with Mike Pondsmith on this one. He is the father of the Cyberpunk RPG and he says it's good sci-fi, but it's not cyberpunk.

Last edited: Sep 8, 2023

Falksi
Joined Feb 14, 2017
Messages 10,912

Sep 8, 2023
#24

Fucking Masterpiece of whatever it is

forum source:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/is-the-deus-ex-series-overall-the-best-work-of-cyberpunk-fiction-ever-made.148195/

"Our Choice of Futures"

Imagine and create a new future!...

Nice picture... I didn't play the game as I'm using my time playing the #game of #life instead - but I don't mind using the mottos and meanings for real life as all of it can be used to imagine!

#Police replies (your #rights if needed)

the #legal #law + some comments after this list...

➡️ "NO COMMENT SIR... / MADAM"
➡️ NO PERSONAL DETAILS NEEDED
➡️ "CAN I SEE THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT OFFICER?"
➡️ "UNDER WHAT POWER?" (engaging)
➡️ NO DUTY SOLICITOR
➡️ NOT ACCEPTING THE CAUTION?

Also at the end about wasting police time (I.E. COSTING THEM MONEY AND MAN-POWER)
and capitalism hates that...

Because they find nothing much and that's usually bad or better for your side to carry on doing things elsewhere!

#legal #law + my lame advice under each point

====================
LONGER LIST + REASONS
====================

➡️ "NO COMMENT SIR... / MADAM"

You do not need to answer police questions, so don't.

To be polite if you can't just carry on try say "no comment" and move away.

➡️ NO PERSONAL DETAILS NEEDED

Unless you accept you did something and even threats of evidence aren't enough.

You do not have to give personal details under ANY stop and search power, so don't.

➡️ "DO YOU HAVE THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT?... CAN I SEE THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT OFFICER?"

(engaging / calling their bluff)

Police saying "I'll do xyz" is not always the same as doing it - so asking for evidence is good for killing their time and seeing what they have.

⏱️ Taking you the police station takes them a lot of police time ⌚ so don't think it's always what they want even if they pretend to!

I have said "ok let's go" many times after seeing how well time wasting has worked and after a while they leave me alone realising this person IS A *REAL* WASTE OF TIME!! LOL after I pretend to be a potential fish (while I know others are do good work elsewhere)

Don't say it straight away but see what they have and if it works for occupying time go for it! It's a winner!

Taking police people time = loss of man-power on the ground (2+people + vehicle) which can be good for your teams to get rid of them in area

+ they have to do admin after so talking is usually ALL bullshit and just to get you to react and they don't really want to leave the action lol !!

They probably rarely get the chance - so them going back to HQ to realise you did nothing is a crap result and real time waster!

Baiting arrest to reduce their numbers can be good for those that don't mind arrest as a sure way (arrest only means temporarily taken - IT DOES MEAN you're guilty !!! )

So if you said very little from start then chances are your out after half a day and achieve the task of distraction / reducing their on-the-ground numbers).

Don't do anything too wild to get everyone in trouble, should be mostly an alone thing and "oh no why are you taking me?,,, ok let's go" almost :)

Otherwise "no comment" and carry on if you can in silence.

➡️ "UNDER WHAT POWER?"

Ask "under what power do you state your actions?". They work for the community remember so see what they intend.

Asking question is if you really want to challenge police to act lawfully BUT THIS INVITES THEM TO CREATE BULLSHIT REASONS TOO so CONTINUE DON'T ASK UNTIL THEY GO FOR YOU PROPERLY or you want them to be distracted.

Like #ACAB suggests remember not to try convince them as it is literally time killing or anyway they chose that job / use it to put food on table so even good one's already know or can't admit it in front of their peers / workmates.

➡️ NO DUTY SOLICITOR: use a recommended solicitor with protest experience / protest solicitor if in real trouble or wanting to kill time.

Keep some cards as backup or even pretend to use them / distribute them if you want to pretend you're a big fish. Maybe this is bad if they detain you but at least you can use it to call them (it's not that bad to show you know some law people) and waste time or not - Having solicitor with experience over the phone might be better than working with police-given solicitor in some sense. Do ask the solicitor many questions about their capacity / how they work in that police station and then choose another solicitor!

➡️ NOT ACCEPTING THE CAUTION?
A caution is a legal admission of a bit of guilt usually WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING and pretend to wave the finger a bit!

Often when they have nothing they make you sign it and leave with a caution... you might want to contest that after reading what it says and see if it's anything bad and then waste time debating it! (i.e don't leave if you don't agree hehe - it really pisses them off as they are done with you BUT YOU ARE NOT DONE WITH THEM!!! ⌚⌚⌚$$$'S )

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SUMMARY
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⬆️ A lot of these points above INCLUDE willingly time wasting too and accepting they have usually nothing / calling their bluff to occupy their time ! ⬆️

✔️ ⭐ I.E. COSTING THEM MONEY AND MAN-POWER)
Capitalism hates that...

REALLY HATES BECAUSE IT'S AT IT'S OWN COST! ⌚⌚⌚$$$

You can say you're really tired and need to sleep - also kills time and you probably need the sleep.

That's why I've added things here...

✔️ It's effective and low-level
✔️ Low risk compared to effective ratio of distraction to those that cause us trouble... i.e. less police cars on the road / more occupied detaining willing people etc... ❌ 🚗 ❌ 👍

"Writer that nobody reads; leader that nobody follows"

- @jalefkowit (A nice line in this bio) #quote

Banks are sucking all parts of people's work (blood, sweat and tears) which converted from job life into money working for banks like a work-horse in order to get even more profit (banks re - #loan your savings).

It's like keeping patients (or clients) "just-about" alive like bad doctors while all the people in the chain reap / rape from the customer barely leaving them living at the end of the process.

#Banks and #Government make it like having a loan is asking permission to live.

From people's body it's pure extraction. People and their limbs also connected top the eco-systems (outside of human body but still part of us) which all get sucked dry too as a result of doing thew work for each #government

And people even have to pay #interest on top for killing themselves and / or #nature just to live themselves!

That is a big #scam

If you really can't see or imagine more than this, then I think that is close to accepting it almost all.

PEOPLE as the real work... (Using users and their / our dreams merged)

A quick diagram to make it more obvious... means more often than working on tech only.

#real #repair = #people and their #dreams / our #future / #futures

#fridaysforfuture #FFF

Individual Truth sometimes better than common truth

+ Accepting all genuine Truth as a better way ...

Accepting all sincere views doesn't mean you see them all as true/factual, but more genuine and human, which goes towards a lot better processing in my view of #life and our own personal #design between each other *towards* understandable #Truth rather than just 1 Truth...

Facts other people tell us (mass media repeaters especially) also just don't know a lot, so even our own opinions of what is happening to us, can be MUCH better than what they say happens - not least where the recycling actually goes or where the money actually goes...

"The Truth Will Change You"

( I liked the picture if you can imagine a #moral kind of #war game called " #life " )

HUMAN WEAKNESS. ENJOYED...

Humans are the weakness in most things and when accepted (might sound easy but hard to accept) can make the difference to making things much more enjoyable. Like making fun with permission...

When we do things we love while increasing levels tolerance (to ourselves and others) the exposure to it can be like new avenues while seeing the problems. It's not a forever relationship but at least better trying with almost everyone that shows up...

🔔 Desktop notifications ON 🔔
[ I'll see a 10s popup if you post ]

#TV #Retro #Teletext #90s
#ZigandZag #BigBreakfast

The Teletext Archaeologist:
@grim_fandango

+ Teletext post example:
Zig and Zag (Big Breakfast !)

https://mas.to/@grim_fandango/111812942051976732

50 Years of Teletext (remember?)
- TV remote control driven text info via 4 coloured buttons as the main choices!

What am I doing here... no wait I mean what are you doing here... ?

It's like the same question sometimes...

Answer: we are passing time and enjoying less suffering (less boredom) and perhaps something better than sterilised outside-isms but that 'might not be it' either if it doesn't help the outside...
So as "killing time" goes it might a bit too much?