The richest 1% took home nearly twice as much wealth as the rest of the world put together over the past two years.
If that doesn’t convince you wealth inequality is out of control, I don’t know what will.
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@rbreich You have your priorities mixed up... people making more than everyone else, no matter the extent is **not** the issue. It only detracts from the real issue, which is the quality of living of the poorest people below the poverty line.
Wealth is not a pie, a fixed thing with only so much to go around. One person having more does **not** mean someone else has to have less. Wealth is something constantly being created and destroyed, the real question is why arent the poor able to create wealth.
@freemo @rbreich I'll push back on this one, if only because I don't want to look at my dynamic programming assignment 😂
I agree wealth inequality itself isn't the problem; however, I don't think the market is good at assigning value judgements to things, which leads to a whole bunch of really screwed up stuff, and the subsequent conflation of benefiting from capitalism with worshiping mammon.
For example: the CCP has been torturing religious and ethnic minorities for decades, mass surveilling their people, murdering political dissidents, and *MOST IMPORTANTLY TO INVESTORS* preventing individuals or corporations from withdrawing assets from the country "illegally". Yet, our investors, companies, etc. speculate that China is "the next big thing" and lose their asses while enriching a hostile country. People continue investing in Nestle and Tesla despite the provable child labor in their supply chains, (and of course the rest of the atrocities Nestle got away with). Why? Because making an extra 2% ROI is all that matters.
Meanwhile, private equity firms in the US buy up failing companies for pennies on the dollar, try to squeeze *every* *last* *drop* of capital out of them, and cause lasting damage in the process (see the environmental damage caused by rail issues across the US, alongside the mess of our hospitals, many of which are owned by private equity). Their M.O. is to run things so lean, and to cut so many corners, that the business fails anyway, but at least they didn't let any of that money go to the worke- I mean-down the drain.
The impacts of our modern values in relation to money go on and on, because nearly everyone has a price but not a spine: they'll sell out their employees and the business they built up to get rich, and leave the people they employ in the hands of a board who never sees them, and frankly doesn't care about them at all. For most, it's not about loyalty, purpose, effecting change in the world, and eking out a living (even a good one!) in the process; it's solely about the number of 0s on the check. It's so bad to the point that peoples lives and finances are ruined for "shareholder value", while disregarding the people who actually generated value for the company and the economy.
Finally, the reasons that the poor "cannot create wealth" is that often it is taken from them while the wealthy are given kickbacks in an almost perverse way: banks charge more fees for lower account balances, accessing credit with lower APY is more difficult, etc. Of course much of this boils down to financial literacy, but when a single car accident can bankrupt a family due to exorbitant healthcare coverage, adversarial insurance companies can screw anyone who can't sue them (by not paying out), etc, it's easy to see that there are not enough legal protections for the impoverished when the penalties for victimizing them are a pittance or even nonexistent.
So while I can agree that money *itself* isn't the problem, the modern "idolatry" of it is such a perverting influence that people conflate the two, because frankly it's difficult not to.
>"Finally, the reasons that the poor "cannot create wealth" is that often it is taken from them while the wealthy are given kickbacks in an almost perverse way... "
The most deleterious way in which money flows from the poor to the wealthy is through the unfair tax system with all of its exemptions and deductions. To determine a "fair" tax rate, i.e. one in which everyone pays the same rate on all economic activity, you need to divide tax revenue (about $4T / year) by all economic activity, i.e. every dollar that changes hands (estimated about $1600T / year). That works out to a tax rate of .25%. That's right, if we fairly taxed every dime of economic activity -- every time a dollar changes hands -- instead of carving out loopholes for the rich, everyone would pay a tax rate of .25%. But under the current corrupt system the poor and working class pay 30-50%, while the wealth often pay nothing.
>"There is an issue, and part of that is how we treat money, sure.. the point is wealth inequality simply isnt an issue and hurts no one itself."
Wealth inequality is an issue and it does hurt people when it is so great that some people can't afford the basics, like shelter, food, transportation, healthcare. And it's a huge issue when it is the result of government intervention on behalf of the wealthy -- distorting markets while leaving more people in desperation.
Turning over more control to the government as a response to this situation will only make it worse because government policies (which are ultimately determined by the wealthy) are what have gotten us into this mess in the first place.
I think some form of robust Basic Income, like a Universal Basic Income for those who need it, along with a fair tax system that politicians can't touch, is a sustainable way to alleviate the suffering.
I actually disagree there, the tax system is rather fair and pretty heavily taxes the rich. Most of the perceived issues here come about from meme that just arent accurate and a lack of accounting knowledge... but I digress, we can agree to disagree here.
What I do want to say is that the real problem is more about how lax we are about anti-trust laws (monopoly busting laws), thats where the real issues lie, the tax itself is fine.
>"...the tax system is rather fair ..."
Compared to slavery, yeah.
>"...we can agree to disagree here."
I disagree.
>...the real problem is more about how lax we are about anti-trust laws..."
Yes, that's another big issue and one that I think is due in large part to laws that encourage monopolies and hinder companies that attempt to challenge incumbent market leaders. (those laws are often written by those incumbent firms themselves)
@Pat @freemo @rbreich I do have to say I like this "ultra-flat" tax idea pat is proposing here, it seems very clever: every time dollars change hands, 0.25% of that goes to the government, but I do think there are good reasons for tax exemptions (such as for groceries and other necessities).
However, I also know that regardless of the highest margin tax rate, the government has consistently only received around 16% of GDP, due to increasing corruption caused by the wealthy paying for laws that benefit them and are cheaper than the tax rate.
I think until we solve the corruption problem (maybe programmatically? but that opens up a completely different can of worms) it seems like we're stuck.
>"I think until we solve the corruption problem (maybe programmatically? but that opens up a completely different can of worms) it seems like we're stuck."
Yeah, ultimately the problem lies between our ears, with this brain that evolved millions of years ago, and is mal-adapted to this post-scarcity world.
Of course its natural it follows whats called the natural distribution and the same distribution applies to most everything in nature. It is very natural in a large population for a very small percentage to be vastly outperforming thr majority.
@Paulos_the_fog @johnabs @rbreich
What is extrodinary to me is that anyone thinks a wealth gap is an issue at all in its own right.
Iff you have a society where the poor have a good quality of life, and good opportunity for advancement. But there happen to be a few super wealthy people, who cares. Since wealth is not a pie,a nd others being rich doesnt imply others must have less, why do you care if there is a huge wealth gap, all you should care about is the quality of life for the majority of people... To be mad because some people performed really well and did really well is very petty and selfish.
There **is** an issue, and that is that is that the poor dont have good oppertunities, fulls top.
@freemo @Paulos_the_fog @johnabs @rbreich But don't you think when the wealth gap becomes very large, the wealthy has too much power to rewrite the rules so that it benefits themselves? And it will not be because the wealthy have worse morals. It is human nature to want to do better for themselves compared to the baseline that they are used to - and the baseline is simply higher for the wealthy. Wealth gap also creates invisible culture gaps because of the difference in education, work environment, etc., making it more difficult for people across classes to agree on policies. I agree that the existence of wealth gap is a natural phenomenon, but the size of the wealth gap matters, and the existence of all the other issues cannot be divorced from the size of the wealth gap.
The issue you describe is not one with the wealth gap, the issue is that we allow people with money to write the rules in the first place. This is why i say its a distraction, under no circunstance is the wage gap thr problem, it is always peripheral and a distraction to the real problems.
Why should i be ok with a neighbor who makes twice what i do having twice the influence on who is elected? Why should i frame that as a wage gap problem at all just because it gets worse when someone makes 100x what i make. The gap isnt the problem, money = political power is. Fix democracy so it cant be bought instead.
@freemo @Paulos_the_fog @johnabs @rbreich What I am arguing for is that a large enough wealth gap - I do not mean wealth gap categorically - naturally causes the people that have more money to be able to re-write the rules. These rules can be numerous and outside the political realm (e.g. higher maintenance fees of bank accounts for poorer people) such that it is difficult to fix them with government policies (and undesirable since a high degree of political interference breeds authoritarian government). Therefore, fixing democracy requires having mechanisms that limit the degree of of economic inequality in the society, among many other things.
Yes i know what you were arguing for. I am saying that the problem in your scenario isnt the wealth gap, its the fact that we have a system where wealth lets you rerwrite the rules in the first place, an issue that happens no matter thr degree of the wealth gap just to varying degrees. The issue isnt the wealthgap, its the fact that you can rewrite rules with money.
@freemo @Paulos_the_fog @johnabs @rbreich I guess our disagreement is in whether it is possible to prevent people from re-writing rules with money without setting checks on wealth gaps.
@commonchaffinch @Paulos_the_fog @johnabs @rbreich
You arent preventing it even if you do limit the wealth gap, so its a moot point. If everyone had the same income with one super rich person then one person can rewrite the rules. If you have1000 rich people who are a bit less wealthy then they can collectively set the rules. Even my neighboor who has slightly kore ko ey than me can donate more generously to politicians and therefore despite a small wealth gap still can write the rules more than i can.
Short of complete communism, which no sane person advocates for really, the wealth gap is not the cause nor even relevant for the most part.
@freemo @Paulos_the_fog @johnabs @rbreich I agree with the scenario you described, but I think having 1000 people who are a bit less wealthy is better than having 1 people who is extremely wealthy, because 1000 people can reach out to a larger part of society.
Thats like treating the symptom rather than the problem.. sure it might seem to help for a short term but long term your doing more harm than good, afterall super wealthy are also wealth generators and fuel the wealth of many. Every old lady with a retirement fun is backed in part by amazon stock. You arent really ever going to get a sane symptom when you avoid the problems and focus on treating symptoms.
@freemo @Paulos_the_fog @johnabs @rbreich Right, I can see your point now. It seems you are arguing for more fundamentally changing the system so that wealth gap can no longer cause problem.
@Paulos_the_fog @freemo @rbreich That's quite the generalization there that I'm *sure* is healthy for political discourse 😛
Fundamentally, wealth should be earned according to value production. Some skills are more valuable at a given time in any arbitrary society, and those who are capable of producing the most value should be rewarded accordingly to incentivize them to continue to do so. When this doesn't happen, you get places with high economic inequality due to high rates of political corruption (e.g. the curse of natural resources) rather than alternative, less insidious causes of wealth inequality, and by the Pareto principle, this is the expectation.
Of course, this is assuming the economic system works in a vacuum of purely rational entities with long term thinking being the dominant form of thought. But in the absence of perfection, principles must suffice. I think people should be monetarily rewarded for how much they make society a better place and improve the lives of those around them, and so long as the rules/laws/morals aren't being skirted around in the process, I think that's fine. Once things like patent trolling, pharmaceutical patent extensions, copyright extension lobbying, etc. become a problem then they must be addressed, but these issues are consequences of greed and what I referred to as the "idolatry of money", not wealth itself.
(And of course, I think the wealthy have a moral obligation to help the less fortunate, but I'm less amenable to the government forcing that to occur and in a way that often dilutes the impact the funds have on those individuals who are supposed to be aided due to the impact of middlemen on this redistribution: all those IRS agents have to be paid after all. Not that all taxes are bad, but many are paradoxical in effect.)
@johnabs
I dont think we are in disagreement. There is an issue, and part of that is how we treat money, sure.. the point is wealth inequality simply isnt an issue and hurts no one itself. All the other issues you mention, sure.
@rbreich