@freemo I would love a nitpicky brainy debate about this :-) But tell me which part of VSCode still smells icky like Microsoft? I must tell the #VSCode Community to change the darned branding! The #PineTime Community @PINE64 might even consider adopting it as #PineCode ;-)

@lupyuen

From a technical standpoint, nothing. As a tool it works ok enough.

My reaction is purely out of distaste for microsoft and purely a branding thing.

The issue is mostly just

1) Microsoft created it

2) It uses "Visual" in the name, typical microsoft branding

3) it is designed for heavy GUI users in mind. Us linux guys who use emacs or vim are going to see the microsofty design still just from the fact that like all GUIs written by microsoft the hot keys are weak and it relies on users who are ok using a mouse instead of hot keys.

@PINE64

@lupyuen

To me this is a perfect example of a monopolistic corporation using OSS improve its image, attract the community to do free work and marketing for them, while keeping key components of the system(in areas where they have and wish to maintain their monopoly, which for MS very much is C# and C++ dev tooling) proprietary. VSCodium supports VSCode, unless it actually forks and does sizeable amount work under a GPL like license.

Also it being based on the abomination that is electron, I just can't see how someone doing embedded dev or even just rust in general can like it, even purely on the technical level. Your only excuse is "I like shiny, and I don't care"... which is a valid excuse I guess.

@freemo @PINE64

@namark

I agree that is microsofts intent. I have nothing wrong with that intent. Its a wonderful step in the right direction for them and a brilliant business move overall. It simply isnt a tactic that works for me as I do not have microsoft in high regard in terms of fostering quality dev communities or products, so I stay away.

Despite my distaste for Microsoft I have no issue with them going open source, I applaud it

@lupyuen @PINE64

@freemo @namark @PINE64 OK maybe let's bring the discussion back from Microsoft back to VSCode (or whatever *Code that we can choose to name it)... Had a quick discussion with the Awesome #PineTime Community...

We would like to have a GUI tool (in addition to the existing command-line tool) because it's a matter of Choice and Inclusiveness. Some folks may find GUI IDEs more comfortable (probably younger+older coders). Also I suspect that Asians prefer a GUI IDE that's culturally agnostic. (Easier to communicate too. Any other Asians here who can validate this?)

Is it going to be based on VSCode or Electron or whatever? Not sure yet. But seems the VSCode Community has done such a great job, we should consider them.

Erm maybe I get a tad offended when people say I should use the command line and GUIs rot my brain... But my brain really works better with GUI.

And since command line tools like gdb are extremely well documented, I thought I might chip in a viable FOSS GUI alternative. Remember that All Monopolies Are Bad... Even Command-Line Monopolies 😉

So my plea to all Command-Line Fans... Please cut us GUI Folks some slack... Let's all solve problems with the tools that work best for each of us. Thanks! 🙏

@lupyuen

I think you should use whatever you enjoy using. I dont like to rely too much on my mouse it slows me down and obscures me from the internals and limits my ability to be productive when I read the limits of that GUI.

I find the argument for using a GUI is only one, a smaller learning curve. You can open it up and start working, no need to memorize key bindings or commands or look at man pages.

While there is nothing wrong with that I do find that when we talk about the whole of a community (not the individuals which can always deviate from the norm) this has consequences. When I deal with other GUI users (windows users who are programmers) I often find they have far less skill than command line users. I cant tell you how many times I said to a windows user "Can you please rebase your commit and squash and reorganize your commits" and they had No idea what I was saying, all they ever knew how to do was hit a few buttons, even though this should be the norm for most commits.

My aversion to the GUI world is mostly just that, that I find the communities that build up around them seem to be poorly skilled.

Now to bring that back to VS code, well that point was really just one of the points I listed. The microsoft association and how they used microsoft idology to make that GUI made the consequences worse.

Take Emacs, my prefered IDE. It has a GUI, there is a menu bar, you can open files with a mouse click, multiple tabs for different files, the whole none yards. However it is designed like a GUI for console programmers. You can use it entirely via hot key without ever needing a mouse (in fact that is the primary use) and you tend to have full access to the commands you issue on the command line (with built in shells or building out your own hot keys or whatever way you want to use it). So the userbase that uses it doesnt seem to have the issues I mentioned before where the skill level is inadequate.

But like I said, you use a GUI, it speaks to you, you like it, there is no issue. There are plenty of people who use GUIs who are amazing programmers too. Like I said the "average" doesnt mean it represents you, so those arent judgements about you.

You wanted to know why I, and others, are bias against VSCode so I thought I'd share

@namark @PINE64

@freemo @namark @PINE64 OK glad that I can still go ahead with my GUIs and you won't look down on me ;-) Now since I'm on a STEM server, lemme give you another reason why GUIs have a purpose...

Hypothetically... If I grew up playing video games, I would find GUIs more appealing than command-line interfaces right?

So if we didn't have a good GUI to captivate me, I wouldn't have bothered to learn about computers and how they work.

And because I never learnt any computing, I wouldn't have learnt any programming either... The ultimate command-line interface.

So for the sake of STEM I think we should invest in FOSS GUI development tools. Because kids will never touch computers otherwise.

I don't believe GUI tools will rot their brains because GUI tools can only do so much... It's only a matter of time that they will break out of the GUI and do something textual.

I'm very concerned about the lack of young coders in Singapore... I have a hunch that we are not creating the right GUI coding tools to captivate them.

Microsoft Visual Studio is an awful terrible legacy mess. Scratch is too kiddy. What's in between?

Maybe I'll solve this with the #PineTime Community. I'll keep you updated if we're successful :-)

@lupyuen

Hey I never said we should abolish GUIs or they dont have a purpose. I often say they have a place in helping entry level programmers get interested. Hell if you find it useful as a professional programmer feel free to use it too.

I'm just saying there is good reason for someone to cringe when they see something like VSCode, but if they are giving you a hard time for YOUR choice then they are in the wrong.

So yea I agree, let people keep investing in FOSS GUI tools. Just dont be surprised when I cringe if I see someone using one in a professional setting (teaching would be a good exception).

I am actually concerned more with **too many** young coders. I find in the USA (where I moved from) there are far too many of them, mostly motivated by money. The quality has really went down in the work place and its hard to find quality co-workers or employees, largely because too many people are going into programming who arent passionate about it.

@namark @PINE64

@lupyuen

I was not arguing command line vs GUI. If you want to contribute to free software you should prefer projects like emacs(it has a gui and mouse support of sorts), gnome builder, code blocks, bluefish etc.

If localization is what you are missing, than contribute to it. Though I would say that is not at all an IDE problem, there is way more important stuff (mainly learning materials) that are tied to English, random menu items of some GUI are the least of the concerns in that area.

Also I'm not sure what kind of worldview(softview?) you must have to call gdb(which is not even a company and not even a brand) a monopoly, but I'm pretty sure it makes everything I said complete nonsense to you. I encourage you to familiarize yourself with free software movement. I don't have any good pointers, but maybe fsf.org, or libreplanet.org are good places to start.

@freemo @PINE64

@freemo

Yes, we all know you don't care about proprietary software, as long as it doesn't affect you personally (or as long as you can pretend that it doesn't). Microsoft didn't suddenly decide to be nice and "go open source", or start "loving linux" or whatever else marketing you want to believe, it was forced to do what it's doing to attempt to maintain/extend its monopoly.

@lupyuen @PINE64

@namark

When did I say they did it for loving linux or to go open source? As I explicitly said they did it as a business decision to make more money. In that regard it was a brilliant decision as a company and one of very few decisions they make which I absolutely support, even if i dont like what they produce and thus wont use it.

I also never said I dont care about it as long as it doesnt effect me, try listening more closely to what people say. What I did say is that proprietary software is not. It absolutely effects me, and I care about those effects, it just isnt an evil that needs to be removed, the good far outweights any negative much as patents and copyrights do as well.

@lupyuen @PINE64

@freemo

I was mainly nitpicking on you last sentence about microsoft "going open source", which sounded a lot like a marketing buzz and an attempt to skew the reality, and was otherwise contributed nothing to your overall statement, which to me seemed very much self centric, since stupid me keeps forgetting that proprietary software is good. The goods that it had done are immense of course... if you consider establishing monopolies owned by select few, who then toss breadcrumbs at their employees and now at OSS projects to keep people "happy", good. It's all relative of course, after all software doesn't matter, it is not a necessity in any way for anything important.

In my opinion software industry today is not at all in a good state, and its progress is greatly hindered by proprietary software and the culture that accepts it as the norm.
There is no expectation of warranty of any sort or any independent quality standards from any "product". Most software is expected to be unstable and not be fit for any purpose. It is expected to routinely break and be patched up in various backwards ways. Even very important software projects often fail/break in the most embarrassing of ways. Most software is badly designed, even according to people who designed it. A lot of the designs are duplicates, made for no other reason than to have copyright on it...
but of course proprietary software has nothing to do with it, what am I even talking about??? I guess, it's all the unwashed masses who try to get into software industry for money alone... wait... but why does one have a chance of making any money in the industry without being an expert or at least good at what they're doing? hmmm... this dillemma is unsolvable...

@lupyuen @PINE64