Post @post@qoto.org

@benhamilton

Having this syntax introduced by #Logseq standardized as the "structured Markdown" format and supported by libraries and applications just like XML, JSON etc would indeed be very nice!

@masi

#Emacs ecosystem is certainly the best one and indeed you can implement the whole OS in it.

My point is more about the OS, that provides a lingua franca when it comes to things like the file system. Android does a bit more with API to access contacts, calendar etc.

On Linux we were supposed to use D-bus, I don't know if MacOS or Windows have something like that. For sure apps like #Logseq are developed to be cross-platform and most of the time are available for MacOS, then Windows and only if we are lucky Linux.

This means those apps use the greatest common divisor of these platforms, totally ignoring things like D-bus.

On Plasma and GNOME you can even login with some online accounts (Google, Nextcloud, ...) and get integration with various parts of the system and applications.

Almost no one use them though: even Mastodon, so focused on protocols and interoperability, is developed by people using MacOS and a proper integration with a Linux OS is a dream.

The concepts are there, most technology too, but we are chained by this apps-as-silos approach by MacOS and Windows and their opinionated and proprietary solutions.

@benhamilton

I see what you mean but let me split the matter in two and start from the latter:

Communication between apps/system should use structured formats as always but I'd like if we could all agree that at least fields containing text would use Markdown syntax for bold, italics etc.

On storing structured data in Markdown, #Logseq does it by using Markdown indented lists (to define hierarchies) and "properties" for each element with the syntax `key:: value`. To my knowledge everything can be stored with it but I see this as a nice option to have, while the first part is the important one.

My problem is not really with #Logseq or other #PKM or #TfT apps but with the silos most apps are and how much effort it requires to build and maintain "bridges" between these silos i.e. the integrations everyone look for when evaluating a software solution.

Storing notes in a standard format like #Markdown is a step in the right direction but we need more standard protocols and formats and more OS-level integrations.

The OS should take care of stuff like contacts, calendar, indexing files etc and let applications transparently access them. This approach has been explored by #KDE for example with Kontact, Akonadi, Baloo and more.

I should be able for example to login into Mastodon from my system settings and 1) receive native notifications 2) being able to share a note or a image to Mastodon without opening a full client 3) found my bookmarked toots in my PKM app of choice 4) see my followed and following accounts in an ad-hoc category in my contacts and so on.

Too much work is required now, like "in which service did I save that thing?" because we have no unified search (well again KDE's Krunner does its best with this concept) or again "where can I contact that person? In which format the resource must be for that platfom?"

From this perspective projects promoting themselves as "Everything OS" while just being the n-th low-code platform like #Tana are laughable.

@filippo

Do you have examples of what you didn't want to see on that platform, so that we can judge by ourselves?

#Logseq honest review

🟢 #FOSS with AGPL license (in theory)
🔴 In reality it depends on a closed source module responsible for sync, dubious legality and misleading
🟡 Developed almost privately by a Venture Capitals funded company but accepting small contributions on GitHub and donations on OpenCollective
🟢 Store notes in #Markdown (or in less supported #OrgMode) locally
🟡 Forces indented lists in .md files and it doesn't support normal paragraphs at all
🟡 Introduces syntax that breaks Markdown in a very bad way instead of using code blocks where possible (in Advanced Queries?)
🟡 Based on Electron, NodeJS and NPM
🟡 UI and business logic mixed together, it forces you to always run the whole UI, including for sync
🟢 Available for Linux on FlatHub (unofficially)
🔴 AppImage is the only officially supported way to install on Linux
🟡 No official reproducible builds but unofficial Flatpak ones are reproducible
🟡 Not in F-droid (and the closed source sync feature wouldn't be allowed there anyway), you have to grab their APK manually or automatically
🟢 Supports Wayland but not by default
🟢 Custom CSS
🟡 Fixed UI, no tabs, no split view
🟡 Multi-window means multiple conflicting whole instances
🟢 Plugins platform
🔴 Plugins marketplace based on GitHub
🟡 Poor integration of plugins especially from UI/UX PoV
🟢 Very interesting concept of PDF annotations
🟡 PDF annotations not stored in the .pdf as standard annotations
🟡 PDF annotations stored in their own .md files with odd names
🟢 LaTeX formulas support
🟡 No native PDF export and in general problematic
🟡 Too many menus, command palettes and other redundant UI elements
🟢 Queries with simple syntax and UI
🟡 Advanced Queries are too often needed
🟢 Datalog query language in Advanced Queries
🟡 Very broken aliases feature
🟡 Inconsistent requirements of capitalize, lowercase etc in query syntax and elsewhere that even break some functionalities
🟢 Macros
🟡 Macros don't work with most syntax, including Advanced Queries
🟢 Supports HTML and Hiccup syntax
🟢 Supports embedding Web pages using iframes
🟢 Sync is e2e encrypted
🔴 The code for e2e encryption can't be audited because it is closed source
🟡 Tons of functionalities must be configured by editing a EDN file that it is very easy to break
🟢 Forum based on Discourse
🔴 Use (and abuse) of Discord, even release announcements are made there
🟡 Some Matrix bridges

Concept: 8/10
Execution: 5/10

CC @logseq

@dansup

There are forums for that and Discourse is a very good implementation. Groups would just bring even more moderation drama on the Fediverse.

@monsoon0

To be clear I mean just mentioning/discussing on radio the approach, the resources, the tools like Manim, Geogebra etc.

I think we often forget that for most people math is just solving algebra problems with pen and paper.

@monsoon0

Most people now voted for "latest developments", but how do they expect the mathematician to sound interesting on that on radio.

I voted for education because I think there is a lot of room for making people interested in math and discuss how to take advantage of digital tools like 3D animations or programming.

For example #3b1b videos really make math accessible in the right way, i.e. making you understand why things are the way they are and not just accepting notions.

@nhan

They can just develop in the open like most FOSS projects but I doubt they want to. Also they could clarify what kind of contract they have with VC funds and what these investors expect.

Starting to develop in the open at this stage is not trivial because people not used to FOSS make a lot of "noise".

You quoted "culture" but the right culture is exactly what is needed here and it can't be shared with just a message or two.

I am starting to believe that an healthy FOSS project is one that grows together with its users and by this I mean that a smaller userbase understands how to contribute efficiently, welcome new users and educate them.

If you open Logseq Discord it doesn't look like a FOSS chat space at all. It's all a chaos of people writing in the wrong channel and not using the forum at all. Most of them have zero experience with FOSS.

If you reply to them with useful answer they start to contact you privately with new unrelated questions instead of keeping asking in the public. An attempt to skip the queue for help, I guess.

My fear is that Logseq is used by people that are not really the target userbase and that they would be better served by a simpler app. But most MacOS apps are paid so Logseq is more attractive.

Logseq is a unique case that deserves a sociology study, I kid you not.

@nhan

Maybe if you and the Logseq team spent more time understanding FOSS we would have more successful FOSS projects like Blender, Krita, Libreoffice just to name a few. But on Logseq team defense, they welcome contributions on GitHub so they already do 90% of what's expected by FOSS maintainers.

My point against OP still stands though and it was against them specifically because they complained all the time, didn't interact with the community and did nothing to help when invited to do so.

And them judging the community like the section of a review was annoying: "and the waiters were nice (minus one)!"

@ebiester

Ha, yes. To be clear, I am criticizing OP because of their closed mind in previous interactions when it comes to appreciate FOSS: a different kind of "products" that need a different lens to be judged.

With most proprietary products you can only complain so people get used to that. With FOSS you have the chance to help.

OP complained all the time, made judgements even on the community like they were reviewing a product, didn't try to improve things, their interactions with the community are close to zero: they just sat down and enjoyed the trip.

I know not all Apple users are like that but don't tell me this is not what Apple itself expects its users to be.

@markmcelroy

> The interaction — my first unpleasant one on Mastodon — left me with a bad taste in my mouth. And while neither Logseq nor its developers are responsible for one person’s behavior … I confess this exchange influenced how I felt about Logseq.

To anyone reading this and wondering why OP doesn't link it, it's because it was him complaining about Logseq all the day without realizing #FOSS has a different culture compared to Apple users:

We build our **tools**, you **consume** products.

Please just go back to Twitter and maybe never use FOSS again since you don't want to understand its culture nor respecting it but expecting consumer service and even complaining of having to report bugs against beta software (crazy!).

Ha, and if you were from the software industry you would know that 3 years are nothing and it is totally normal to be in beta after 3 years for complex applications like Logseq, it's just that you know about a proprietary product only when it is or very close to be released, ignoring how many years it took.

@jef

Despite the name, #WHO has no authority but has proven to be a totally corrupt entity and completely dedicated to the pursuit of private interests.

@EugeneMcParland

Until US/UK #FreeJulianAssange (a real Journalist) I will never believe fake solidarity for this "journalist", it's just #USpropaganda