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I doubt a single one of the COVID conspiracy theory nutters out there could even answer this quiz, and this is just the basic level.
@freemo I don't care about the vaccine safety any more. I'm upset about being compelled to take it.
@swiley I agree 100% with you, thats an issue. But then again thats just as much the conspirasy theorists fault as it is the governments. If so many people werent out there spreading lies convincing people to put their lives at risk there wouldnt have been the need.
@freemo There's arguably no need regardless.
@swiley While I dont agree that it should be forced on anyone, there is a need, and the conspiracy theorists created it.
There are countless people who beleived their lies and arent smart enough to know better who are going to die. It has kept the vaccinations from reaching herd immunity and as such the potential for ever more variants to arise.
So the need is preventing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people that anti-vaxers have caused.. yes there is a "need", I just dont feel that justified forced vaccination no matter how big that need may be
@freemo Israel has nearly 100% vaccination and has no herd immunity.
The virus is not as deadly as people say it is and there are alternative treatments that work better as Japan, Mexico, and India have found.
Pushing the vaccine instead of Ivermectin and antibodies is killing people.
@swiley Wrong, Israel has <80% vaccinated as of the latest figures and herd immunity kicks in above 80% with this virus.. So no they dont have herd immunity yet.
Also remember what I said, herd immunity only works when the entire population reaches it quickly (before variants have a chance to form which accelerates as you vaccinate before reaching herd immunity). We achieved herd immunity with smallpox, for example, because the campaign was global and that was a bit of an easier virus in terms of variants.
@freemo I thought Fauci said 50%.
@swiley I have no idea what Fauci said, nor do I care what he or any one specific doctor says. I care about the scientific consensus which has herd immunity well above 80%
Well its not that simple. The vaccine's effectiveness means that even if a person with the vaccine catches it their viral load is much less and the ability to infect others is much less than it would be without the vaccine. So its not really an all or nothing calculation.
That said even if we did assume that the vaccine missed its mark because we didnt vaccinate fast enough to get to herd immunity before a variant was produced that just means we have to repeat the process and be quicker. Get everyone vaccinated and herd immunity for the first virus, then produce a new vaccine that targets the vaccine and ensure we vaccinate much quicker and get the herd immunity this time around and not take a year to vaccinate everyone.
So either way you look at it, the solution would come from vaccinating quickly and with near 100% coverage.
@freemo @GodfreyHendrix
>So either way you look at it, the solution would come from vaccinating quickly and with near 100% coverage.
That's just not going to happen. There are too many people that have no formal connections to anything (homeless/transients/illegals) so if that's what's necessary for vaccines to be viable then they're hopeless.
Our past success with other vaccinations exceeding 80% would prove you wrong. We hit 80% vaccination rate with smallpox and a great many other vaccines in the past.
@freemo @GodfreyHendrix It looks like smallpox was incredibly deadly (at least 100 times that of Covid ) and not as infectious.
1) The percent of immune people doesn't need to be as high
2) People need little convincing to take the vaccine.
You seem to be missing the fact that the percentage that needed to be vaccinated in order to create herd immunity with small pox is about the same as that for covid, so anything else is moot, we know we are capable of reaching the needed herd immunity world wide because we did it before. The only question is if we can vaccinate people fast enough.
@freemo @GodfreyHendrix You're missing the point that it's really not worth it for most people since covid isn't *nearly* as deadly.
@freemo @GodfreyHendrix It's really not.
No offense but earlier in the thread you thought the vaccine was killing people and even thought VARES reported multiple thousands of vaccine deaths... Sorry but you have shown you arent the least bit informed enough to have a clue about how deadly COVID is. It is at least an order of magnitude more deadly than the flu. Almost no one alive today doesnt have a family member or friend who has been killed by it at this point. Yes its absolutely more than deadly enough.
@freemo @GodfreyHendrix I don't know a single person who's died from COVID (I know many who've gotten it) but I do know multiple people who have died from the preventative measures.
+bonifartius 𒂼𒄄
@swiley
that's the anecdote kind of thing i mean. i also know no one who died from covid. those who had it, had problems for some months though.
i too know people who had problems with the vaccination, with some it's clear, with others.. there is just no hard data. it's a bit unsettling though that they all developed strange health problems after the vaccination. problems with their bowels, increased reactions to insect bites, etc. but i have no data to point at. could all be coincidence, too. it's a problem that doctors are humans too, and if they believe enough in the vaccines, things will get under-reported, the same as things getting overreported.
it's just not a perfect world. i'd really wish that everyone could just do as he wishes without the whole "you killed granny by breeding variants" stuff. the variants that make problems are from before the vaccination rollout. even if we all get vaccinated, animals are reservoirs who also breed variants.
IMHO, if one believes it's right to get the current mRNA vaccines that's fine, but if one doesn't want to get them it's fine too. the only thing really proven to effectively reduce spread is to reduce contacts.
@bonifartius @freemo @GodfreyHendrix Right. I just want to be left alone.
@swiley
yup.
get me a classic vaccine and we can talk. china has it, they vaccinated a billion people with it. it's not impossible.
politicians very well know that around 50% of the unvaccinated are critical of mRNA and not of vaccines in general, why don't they just get them the vaccines they want if they want herd immunity?
i'm pretty sure china, cuba, etc. wouldn't say no to that. instead society is pushed to it's breaking point. maybe the west fears that the communist vaccines are more effective and don't require booster shots every few months. can't make money this way ;)
@Telvannichad @GodfreyHendrix @bonifartius @freemo This is exactly what I've been thinking lately.
@bonifartius
Umm we have a classic vaccine in america. The J&J vaccine is a classic vaccine.
@swiley @GodfreyHendrix
@freemo afaik j&j and astra zeneca are viral vector vaccines which do the same as the mRNA vaccines, only that they use a modified virus as transporter instead of lipids
@swiley @GodfreyHendrix
Right like I said J&J is a traditional vaccine and not an mRNA vaccine. Inactivated viral vectors are exactly what traditional vaccines are.
@bonifartius, I think the reason is more likely to be the stupid cold war with China. I mean the map is hilarious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_COVID-19_vaccine_authorizations#Sinopharm-BBIBP
Cc: @swiley, @freemo and @GodfreyHendrix
I've read that many animals can also carry covid.
If that is true doesn't that mean that it's basically impossible to actually eradicate it?
Maybe, I have cricticized that it may be impossible for other reasons. Animals carrying it may not make it impossible if their viral load is low enough and thus the R0 among animals is below 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obdI7tgKLtA
Weak up, piece of shit. Time to encourage people to do more vaccines.
@special-boy @GodfreyHendrix @swiley
@swiley @freemo @GodfreyHendrix
> You're missing the point that it's really not worth it for most people since covid isn't *nearly* as deadly.
The problem is the 4.5% hospitalization rate of 50-64 years old and 7.4% in those 65 and over (https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037)
If you ignore COVID, it will spread in an exponential way, and then also people with "normal" COVID complications will die because hospitals are fulls. In Italy there were a shortage of oxygen during the peek of the pandemic.
@swiley
Smallpox was more deadly.. moot point. COVID is **more** than deadly enough to warrant us to eradicate it if we can, which we can do as we already have done it with other viruses that would require similar effort, full stop.
@GodfreyHendrix