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@swiley This sexual fetish with you and joe Biden is beginning to concern me. Have you tried buying him dinner?
@freemo I think you're projecting.
@swiley I've met the man. Meeting him is a huge turn off.
@freemo That's what the closeted ones say.
@swiley He had dinner at my family home, as has Trump. Couldn't stand either of them honestly.
@freemo Trump wasn't forcing drugs on me.
@swiley No, he was too busy making fun of people with disabilities to the nation. If you think either of these people deserved to be anywhere in the government at all you've already failed to solve the problem.
@freemo I'd take being mocked any day over this and if you don't see why that makes sense you're an idiot.
@swiley Luckily you never had one choice or the other thats like saying "Sure he is a murderer, but id take that over vov who is a murderer and a rapist"... like ok, but you dont have to choose one evil person because you prefer he sort of evil over another evil person. There are **lots** of people to choose from.
If you cant see why your argument is absurd then you are an idiot.
@freemo Yeah that's because you don't live here.
Last year we did have a choice and everyone picked the guy who's forcing drugs on us.
@swiley Of course they picked the wrong guy. I just said Biden was the wrong guy... Trump was just as bad.. again you didnt have the choice of one or the other.
@freemo Yeah he actually wasn't bad.
I hated the way he acted, that was awful and I won't defend it but he's the best we've had in quite a while.
>reminder you were the one who though it appropriate to use personal insults
You started this conversation with a personal insult, scroll up.
@swiley The sexual fetish comment? No thats not a personal insult, no one in their right mind would think I **actually** thought you had a personal fetish. you said "fuck joe biden" since fuck means "to have sex with" it was a joke and play on words, not the same as a personal insult.
@swiley as for other reasons to hate trump well there are the obvious surface reasons:
He demonstrated the intelligence of a small toddler
He was rude and even cruel to people without cause
His ego was very delicate and would have tantrums if anyone talked bad about him
etc.
But then there are more concerete reasons:
He engaged in masive QE which caused the highest inflation on record and, as QE does, we continue to see this massive inflation playing out today.
He rolled back tons of enviromental protections in a world that is barely scrapping by when it comes to keeping nature alive
and quite a few other things we could get into there as well.
There are more than enough reasons to rule out Trump as being even remotely competent.
@freemo
>QE
Do you think anyone would have done something else in 2020? I didn't like it either but I don't know what else you would expect
>He rolled back tons of enviromental protections in a world that is barely scrapping by when it comes to keeping nature alive
Our emissions fell while he was president.
The rest of your complaints are "he was rude and dumb."
@swiley No one in the history of the US has done the specific type of QE, or the quantity of QE Trump has done. In fact only one other president engaged in QE before, that was Obama, and it was of an entierly different nature and not really comparable (though arguably not great)..
So no, others would not have done what Trump did in regards to QE.
Funny though how your whole argument is basically "other people suck too" not much of an argument.
Secondly your argument about emissions is completely false. Attached is the chart of pm2.5 (fossil fuel metric)emissions normalized for the day Trump was elected... Does that look like emissions went down during his election to you?
In fact even if we try to find the few metrics that might cherry-pick its way for you seeming right you will find that while emissions may have decreased in some special cases the rate of decrease significantly slowed or even leveled off compared to the rate it was falling before he took office.
@freemo Your chart ends in 2018. Trump was president until the beginning of 2021.
@swiley Feel free to show us that chart of 2021 pm2.5 that you seem to think raised then... ill wait.
@freemo You're welcome to keep waiting.
I'll burn the forests down over what the current president is doing.
@swiley What is it with you and your false equivelance fallacies. I never once stated Biden is doing a good job or that you shouldnt be outraged at his choices... yet that is continually asserted in your bad-faith defenses.
You say shit that is completely a lie, then argue about it, and then complain that the data other people use to disprove you isnt good enough, meanwhile you have no data of any kind to suggest what you said is true.
Its lazy and makes you look very bad. Any intention to actually discredit Biden or his choices are overshadowed by the fact that you just discredit yourself in the very process. As someone who against Biden myself I certainly dont appreciate you hindering efforts and making people who are against Biden look bad, and thus weaking out own more valid arguments against him.
I think swiley is just a little radicalized by the sad state of our world. This state can exist on all sides of the political spectrum with one commonality, politically the world is kinda fucked.
Freemo is not wrong in this, even if an idea seems good cause it enables your point of view doesn't make it right.
I also agree with swiley on many points.
Biden is terrible, vaccine mandates are egregious.
beware confirmation bias leading you with hope to misinformation. We are all guilty of this from time to time it takes a greater person to realize and accept truth.
Very well said, I agree with everything you said.
The thing is swiley's stated goals/concerns (the hate of biden and vaccine mandates) are ones I share. I do understand why it has driven him to an emotional, and thus wreckless, response. But I do agree with what he is mad at.
I just dont like seeing anyone being self-destructive of their own goals, especially not when those goals agree with my own.
I dont dislike swiley, I dont think he is a bad person, I dont disagree with his **intent**. But I do find it counter-productive and obnoxious the way he argues for it.
Its important to also point out, this is a STEM instance first, free speech is secondary as a necessity to STEM. He has stated before he knows he is shit posting, he knows it is wrong, but is doing it out of anger at how bad things have gotten... Thats all well and good but a STEM instance is not the place to come and post anti-factual statements and sell it as true, especially when you know that is the case. Why is he on a STEM instance at all when he doesnt care about truth, where the means justify the ends and the first thing to get chucked is truthfulness/honesty.
Vaccines mandates make sense. It is like using car belt mandates, or stopping on red lights mandates.
* Believing is not required
* You do it or you get what you deserve.
* Everybody must do it because it adds to the common good.
After 2 years of pandemic, it is pointless to try to convince people that believe the true is opinable.
Just get vaccinated. If you want to understand why, google it.
I am tired of living in a world where the most idiotical opinions are considered up to the same level of scientific facts...
@pthenq1 Car seatbelt mandates dont make sense either, so you've shot yourself in the foot with that comparison in my eyes. Forcing a a medical treatment and drug on a person, no matter how much i might support said drug, is never something I will acccept.
Bodily autonomy is sacred and there is no situation where it can be overlooked IMO.
@freemo
It is not about you. It is about the other.
The car seat belts protects the family members of the car occupants. So they do not loose their love ones.
Red lights protect the other drivers.
Vaccines creates heard immunity. It protects the other people.
A person still 2 years later refuses to vaccinate after all the science published, after all the sad stories of people dying suddenly and alone... a person refusing vaccines doesn't deserve to live. But it is not about him.
So yeah. At this point if the alternative is a person getting vaccinated or getting excluded of any group of people... Yeah. I agree!
We have to move on.
@pthenq1 not sure I follow. How does you wearing a seatbelt protect the other person?
The family of the person who saves his life because he was using his seatbelt are protected of losing him in a crash.
When we multiply this effect for the number of car crashes, imposing the use of seat belts has a remarkable effect.
Vaccines and red lights work in the same way.
Most science now agrees that even 100% vaccination with these specific covid vaccines will not stop the spread or the endemic from continuing.
Car belts are mandated and I take no issues with that, I'm neutral. Those are more about insurance and personal safety then a common good though. There is also virtually no arguments against using them.
I agree its one of the more powerful analogous arguments.
Your science statement is bold and not open minded since there is a fair bit of science that suggests there is more and more real danger to these particular vaccines, science is skeptical not divine. There are many studies that continually disprove what people were claiming as absolute science in the beginning like it being able to give herd immunity. Also there is research going on regarding the specific protein they all use in the genetic therapy to convince your own cells to produce, which in turn trains your immune system. The spike protein itself is potentially toxic in its own right, there are claims that the spike created by the vaccine induce protein is not but that remains to be seen by healthy skeptical researchers void of to much confirmation bias.
There is a group of medical researches at the university I work at that have produced alot of data that gets little attention and debate. The crazier thing is what Dr Pelech says about many of his colleagues and the environment of fear currently in the Canadian academic system, There are medical doctors having their licenses suspended for speaking their minds about it. He also states that research grants are biased toward the type being done. Dr Steven Pelech is in a unique situation regarding punishment and fear since he is both tenured and owns his own pharmaceutical laboratory, he is also on the esteemed senate of the university.
Most of my colleagues are not anti vaccination, just anti this current set of vaccinations.
You can have your opinion but it is of my opinion that in Canada and in the USA this is a gross violation of medical freedom, protected Dr patient privacy and bodily autonomy all of which seat belt mandates are not.
Dr Pelech is one of the founding members of a group of 700 doctors in Canada. https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/
He has assured me in a personal meeting with him that they do their best to keep any misinformation from that website.
Would you like to know my specific reasons and ethical values that prevent me from taking the vaccine?
1) I agree that based on current science and obervation that the vaccines have become fairly useless against Delta. Recent studies show now reduction in viral load on delta which implies from limited data that the vaccines no longer play a role.
2) I think it is completely incorrect however to suggests the vaccines pose a real danger. The cases we see of injury, while real, are extremely rare and overall its such a small percentage of people taking the vaccine that its simply not true to suggest they post any danger of significance. You probably are in more danger of disease and dying from going out to eat at a resteraunt.
It is still a low number but per million doses it is still of a higher factor then vaccines in the common vaccine schedule.
Not sure if this is accurate but back in august I did compare the numbers with vaers and it seemed good.
This might be anecdotal but I already personally know 4 adverse reactions and 1 death from the vaccine. I also know someone that died of covid, but few long haulers.
1 person I met at the store had that crazy face paralysis one. said it had been 2 month and doctor said will never make a full recovery now.
Yes its lack of efficacy is a fine argument against it. I am just saying there is no argument for danger other than a very remote one. But as you say however remote give its ineffectiveness its kinda pointless regardless
@twotwenty you can not compare VARES numbers for several reasons not the least of which being a policy difference between emergency issued vaccines and traditional vaccines
With COVID vaccines they must report all adverse effects, even ones known to be unrelated. With traditional vaccines there is no requirement to report at all by law, and the reporting criteria is much less pervasive.
You can find this explicitly stated on the VARES site (I've had to screen shot it for arguments here many times)
@pthenq1
There is not much data to justify the covid vaccine mandates and I'll die fighting them.
@twotwenty @freemo
@twotwenty
Probably @pthenq1. That would make the most sense. @AmericanChampion @mastodon.la @freemo
@swiley Wow you mean to tell me you literally thing Trump, in and of himself, was a good president? I mean there are plenty of other things than being an asshole to disabled people, but if your going to defend that like it is barely an issue then, well we said, that would make you an idiot. (reminder you were the one who though it appropriate to use personal insults in this conversation, which says a lot about you)